Apparently Tubby Smith Can Recruit
Kentucky fans said buyer beware. Tubby Smith can't recruit they said. He didn't get America's top talent to come to play at Kentucky, so how the heck will he be able to get anything resembling top-notch talent at Minnesota of all places?
If you entertained this line of thought, it's time to admit that the UK faithful were wrong. Because fact is, Tubby Smith's 2008 class has been roundly thought of by experts as a top-20 class nationally. Rivals' rankings has Minnesota's class 23rd nationally and it includes two 4-star freshman. By comparison, Rivals ranks Billy Gillispie's class 21st nationally and it includes two 4-star freshman.
Tubby Smith's 2009 class, likely done at this point, features two potential McDonald's All-Americans in Royce White and Rodney Williams and a point guard from California that is nothing less, and perhaps more, than the talent at point guard many other top-level programs are attracting. In Hoopmaster's Top 20, Minnesota sits currently at #10 for 2009. Kentucky? Not ranked.
I want to point you back to the criticisms that came Tubby's way during the final because they were myriad and never really nailed down anything specific to put substance behind perception.
This post from Tru at A Sea of Blue earlier this year is as good a summary as I have seen. Tru throws out various theories as to why Tubby allegedly struggled on the recruiting trail at UK. Among the claims: Smith is lazy, Smith doesn't like recruiting, his ball-line defense is complicated (baloney, I've taught it to 14 year old girls), his flex offense is hard to understand (more baloney) and that Smith preferred to recruit talent that would be around for four years instead of one and done Diaper Dandies.
As FortyYearCatFan pointed out in a fanpost awhile back, Tubby's inability to recruit was indeed a myth perpetrated by Kentucky fans who simply wanted change.
Tubby recruited 6 (of 9) classes at UK that earned Top 15 or better ratings from the RSCI (recruiting consensus) Winners method. No other coach – not Roy Williams, not Billy Donovan, not Mike Krzyzewski, no one – signed more Top 15 rated classes in that timeframe.
Even CBS taking head and Sports Illustrated writer Seth Davis admitted as much, pointing out that in 2004 Smith brought in three McDonald's All-Americans that simply didn't pan out. So, on one hand Kentucky fans say Tubby is a great coach but a bad recruiter. And when he recruits the top talent that don't meet unrealistic expectations it's because he's a bad coach? That's not logical.
So, what's been the difference at Minnesota? Nothing. Simply put, Tubby Smith had tremendous success in the recruiting department at UK, though like many others, Smith wasn't perfect. He let Chris Lofton and Corey Brewer go elsewhere, for instance. Tough as it may be for UK fans to swallow, through two recruiting cycles, Smith has recruited on par or better than his successor at UK--at Minnesota of all places.
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Long Live Tubby Smith!
Fantastic Job by AD Joel Maturi getting Tubby to coach this squad, Expect National Titles to Come Shortly.
Tubby As Recruiter
Did well at Tulsa. Ditto at Georgia. Likewise Kentucky although not EVERY year. And now at Minnesota too.
A key factor is the staff. The Gopher assistants are better than his most recent UK staff. Vince Taylor, in particular, is a superb recruiter who will be a prime heading coaching candidate (soon) at Div I openings.
Don’t underestimate the support Tubby has from the Minnesota AD. He didn’t have that at Kentucky, either from Larry Ivy in early 2000’s or Mitch Barnhart recently.
I have a follow-up post coming comparing assistants and their recruiting track records.
Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the War Room.
by PJS on Oct 2, 2008 7:05 PM CDT up reply actions
Change
Big factor.
The UK staff (Hanson, Hobbs, Rigot) came together in 2002. They helped Tubby sign a Top 20 class in 2003. THE #1 class in 2004. The #1 JuCo player in 2005. Three Top 50 recruits in 2006. And were on track to land two McDonalds A-A in 2007.
But they had grown stale.
Always good to change your staff every few years.
The Minnesota staff is excellent right now. Taylor will become HC somewhere (soon). Saul is well liked on the recruiting trail.
Taylor
I’d like to see the Joel Maturi strike some sort of deal with Taylor that when Tubby decides to retire, the program is his. Give him ownership. Give him a chance to help build this team into something that he can take over and dominate with. He was in the running for the Western Kentucky job this offseason. But it went to, I think, Texas assistant Ken McDonald.
Taylor has the pedigree and is a proven recruiter. But somehow I’m doubtful we can keep him as an assistant for years until Tubby retires.
Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the War Room.
by PJS on Oct 2, 2008 7:52 PM CDT up reply actions
I'll have to take issue ...
… with some of this.
First of all, many Kentucky players have complained about the complexity of Smith’s offensive and defensive schemes. Now, maybe they were just dumb — if you’ve taught the equivalent of Smith’s schemes to 14-year old girls, maybe the question we should be asking was why Tubby couldn’t seem to bring in guys with at least that level of cognitive ability.
Second, Forty knows Smith well, but with due respect to my fellow Tubby Smith and Kentucky Wildcat fan, his impressions are often highly colored with friendship. There is absolutely nothing wrong or ignoble with that, but one thing we can know for sure is that Smith was an inconsistent recruiter at UK. Forty’s quote is factually correct, but what he fails to point out is that Smith only managed three top ten classes in his nine years here. How does that compare? In that same time frame, Kansas had six top tens, North Carolina seven, Florida six, UConn, Michigan St., Arizona, Duke, and NC State had four. Kentucky is not used to being so far behind, and was a source of discontent.
Smith would get a fine class, like in 1999-00 when he brought Keith Bogans, a 5* out of Dematha and one of our best ever, and Marvin Stone, one of the top recruits in America out of Alabama who just didn’t work out (God rest him, he passed away in Saudi Arabia this year of an apparent heart attack while playing). He also brought in solid but unspectacular classes in 2000-01 and 01-02.
Then he would turn around and bring in classes like 2002, which was so-so by Kentucky standards, and 2003, which was downright poor. 2004 was the famous monster, #1 class (though interestingly #2 by Forty’s cited source), then 2005 was perhaps the worst class since probation. 2006 was a big improvement, but nowhere near the level of UNC, Ohio State, Duke or even Tennessee, for example. I think he would have had a good class in 07 had he stayed, because I firmly believe Patterson would have come if Smith had remained at UK.
It was the maddening inconsistency that bothered UK fans, and it became an albatross around Smith’s neck. Even though Kentucky has a national reach in recruiting, Smith concentrated on the areas he knew well, which is primarily from Maryland south and from the Mississippi East. One of the great things about him being up in UM is that he is recruiting in an area where he is competing with different folks who haven’t learned how to knock him like coaches in the southeast did. It has given him the breathing space he needs to do better, and he has some assistants which now help him more than hurt him.
Another thing that was hurting him was the new blood around the Southeast, the Bruce Pearls and the Billy Donovans. They were getting it done where Smith wasn’t, playing an exciting and appealing style, and when Roy Williams moved out to North Carolina it reached a critical mass that really hurt Smith’s recruiting. I think had Dougherty stayed at UNC one more year, Tyler Hansbrough would have been a Wildcat. But partially because of Kentucky fans’ discontent with Smith, competing coaches were able to come up with a narrative that Smith played slow, plodding, defensive basketball, and that a disproportionate number of his players wound up transferring (not true, but that’s how the story goes). That narrative seriously damaged Smith’s recruiting efforts with many of the top recruits who want to play a style similar to AAU or NBA basketball.
Tubby had to get away from this part of the country to be effective again, and he has and it worked. That’s good for UM and great for Tubby. But make no mistake — Smith was undeniably an inconsistent recruiter at while he was Kentucky in his last 5 years. Has Gillispie done better? I’m not sure, but he has not yet brought in a weak class. It’s early, of course, but right now he looks like an upgrade as far as recruiting is concerned.
Even CBS taking head and Sports Illustrated writer Seth Davis admitted as much, pointing out that in 2004 Smith brought in three McDonald’s All-Americans that simply didn’t pan out. So, on one hand Kentucky fans say Tubby is a great coach but a bad recruiter. And when he recruits the top talent that don’t meet unrealistic expectations it’s because he’s a bad coach? That’s not logical.
I think you have raised a strawman here and dashed it asunder. Kentucky fans’ expectations may be unrealistic by the lights of many, but certainly not North Carolina, Duke, or UCLA in basketball or Alabama football fans just to name a few. So before you judge Kentucky fans too harshly, you should realize that they have a lot of company who get far less criticism for partisan behavior that is just as dramatic and occasionally classless.
What UK fans were upset about was a perception that Smith lacked the ability to develop players, which was precipitated from the Marvin Stone failure and ultimate defection and exacerbated by Rashaad Carruth’s mania. These guys were, unfairly in my view, blamed on Smith by many in the Big Blue Nation. When the ’04 class failed to fire, the meme stuck, deserved or not. It was easy to connect those dots, and many did.
It is just a little amazing to me why Kentucky fan’s perception of Tubby Smith’s isn’t simply cheered by Minnesota fans — after all, the perception by most is that fan unhappiness was what drove Smith to change his job. It isn’t as if UK fans hang around looking for bad things to say about Smith — to the contrary, most ‘Cat fans these days are pleased that Smith is getting along so well up there. Yeah, we have a few wackos, but what fan base doesn’t? I would’ve figured by now we could all just chalk all this up to a difference of opinion that worked out great for all concerned.
Just my $0.02 worth (well, a comment of this length might be more like $5.00). :-)
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
Correction (RSCI Ratings) And I've Got Lots More
http://home.nc.rr.com/rsci/The_Winners/the_winners.html Tubby signed #6 class in 1998. #3 class in 1999. #12 class in 2000. #12 class again in 2001. #2 class in 2004. And #14 class in 2006.
The current UK coach has never signed a Top 10 rated class anywhere (if 10 is the number)
Tubby signed 2003 class rated #18 by Rivals and #22 by Bob Gibbons. His 2002 class was rated #13 by Gibbons. Hardly recruiting failures.
UK landed Top 10 classes in 1992, 1994, and 1995 under his predecessor, whose classes in 1990, 1991, 1993, 1996, and 1997 were subpar by UK (Top 10) standards.
Tubby won 26+ games per year at UK, both with his recruits and with a mixture of players left over by his predecessor (mostly from sub-par 1996 and 1997 classes).
At UK, the following Tubby recruits and/or players developed quite well:
Nazr Mohammed 1998 1st Utah Philadelphia (1998-00)
Philadelphia – Atlanta (2000-01)
Atlanta (2001-03)
Atlanta-New York (2003-04)
New York-San Antonio (2004-05)
San Antonio (2005-06)
Detroit (2006-07)
Detroit – Charlotte (2007-08)
Jeff Sheppard None – - Atlanta (1998-99)
Scott Padgett 1999 1st Utah Utah (1999-03)
Houston (2003-05)
New Jersey (2005-06)
Houston-Memphis (2006-07)
Wayne Turner None – - Boston (1999-00)
Jamaal Magloire 2000 1st Charlotte Charlotte Hornets (2000-02)
New Orleans Hornets (2002-05)
Milwaukee (2005-06)
Portland (2006-07)
New Jersey (2007-08)
Michael Bradley (***) 2001 1st Toronto Toronto (2001-03)
Toronto-Atlanta (2003-04)
Orlando-Sacramento (2004-05)
Sacramento-Philadelphia (2004-05)
Philadelphia (2005-06)
Tayshaun Prince 2002 1st Detroit Detroit (2002-08)
Keith Bogans 2003 2nd Milwaukee Orlando (2003-04)
Charlotte Bobcats (2004-05)
Charlotte – Houston (2005-06)
Orlando (2006-08)
Gerald Fitch None – - Miami – Houston (2005-06)
Erik Daniels None – - Sacramento (2004-05)
Chuck Hayes None – - Houston (2005-08)
Kelenna Azubuike None – - Golden State (2006-08)
Rajon Rondo 2006 1st Phoenix Boston (2006-08)
Randolph Morris None – - New York (2006-08)
Joe Crawford 2008 2nd Los Angeles Lakers
Kentucky expectations are (IMO) the following:
1. UK has won 7 NCAA titles in 70 years. Tubby won 1 in 10 years.
2. UK has won 43 SEC titles in 76 years. Tubby won 5 in 10 years.
3. UK has won 26 SECT championships in 50 years. Tubby won 5 in 10 years.
4. UK has won 76% of its games in 100+ years. Tubby won 76% in 10 years.
5. UK has won 69% of its NCAA games. Tubby won 72% in 10 years.
I personally have no idea what point you are trying to make with all this.
As far as the current coach is concerned, my comment had nothing at all to do with him other than to note that to many UK fans, he looks like an upgrade over Smiths recruiting in the last five years. That may be more perception than reality, but in the college coaching game as in politics, perception often is reality.
What the rest of this stuff has to do with “correcting” me is anyone’s guess. If you have a correction, please be specific and not obtuse.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
Correction Was On the RSCI Class Ratings AND Here's More
Tubby UK 2004 – 2007 = 48* / 14 recruits (3.43*)
Rondo 5*
Morris 5*
Crawford 5*
Bradley 3*
Williams 2*
Carter 3*
Sims 3* JuCo
Stevenson 4*
Meeks 4*
Jasper 4*
Porter 2*
Harris 3*
Stewart 3*
Williams 2*
Gillispie UK 2007 – 2010 = 45* / 13 recruits (3.46*)
Patterson 5*
Legion 4*
Liggins 4*
Miller 4*
Galloway 3* JuCo
Harrellson 3* JuCo
Williams 3*
Pilgrim 2* transfer
Hood 4*
Vilarino 3*
Ferguson 5*
Ross-Miller 3*
Euton 2*
Tubby MINN 2008 – 2009 = 29* / 8 recruits (3.62*)
Sampson 4*
Joseph 4*
Iverson 3*
Bostick 3* JuCo
Carter 3* JuCo
White 5*
Williams 4*
Cobbs 3*
by FortyYearCatFan on Oct 3, 2008 6:21 AM CDT up reply actions
Wait ...
… forget the “more”. I know what the RSCI rankings say, and I know what the star ratings of all the players are. What I want to know is what is it you are correcting, specifically, because it surely isn’t obvious in any of the above.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
Are you happy with Billy G's 2009 class?
Isn’t that the type of class that would have been considered an “inconsistent” class under Smith?
Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the War Room.
No
UK has only 3 scholarships open. And that’s with running 1 player off, maybe 2.
If UK lands Orton, Hood, and Vilarino, that’s a good class. Like UK classes in 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, and 2006 were.
Somewhere in Top 15 range.
by FortyYearCatFan on Oct 3, 2008 11:15 AM CDT up reply actions
If Top 10 Is Literally Meant
The 2000 and 2001 classes (both #12 by RSCI) don’t qualify.
Bob Gibbons and others had those 2 UK classes in their Top 10.
IF Top 10 is LITTERALLY applied, UK had 6 suches classes from 1990 through 2006 (and none since in 2007 or 2008).
3 Top 10 in 8 years of Pitino. 3 in 9 years of Tubby. 0 in 2 years of Gillispie.
by FortyYearCatFan on Oct 3, 2008 11:14 AM CDT up reply actions
But I Agree With This
Minnesota is a MUCH BETTER PLACE for Tubby than Kentucky. The atmosphere in Lexington was utterly poisoned for him.
He is respected by his AD and others at The U. He has the widespread respect of his Big 10 coaching peers. He is loved by Gophers fans, who are quite rapid basketball fans. And his family is happy (at last).
I first met Tubby in 2000. I have never (NEVER) seen him smile as often or as broadly as he has in the times I have seen him in 2008.
I am also surprised that Minnesota recruiting is on a par with Kentucky. UK has so many advantages that one would think Gillispie would dominate Tubby in the living rooms of recruits. He hasn’t. In fact, Tubby outrecruited him for Ralph Sampson (MM visitor at UK last year).
we need a UK v MN match up
How awesome would a Tubby v Gilispie Sweet 16 game be in a year or two? For now Billie should worry about beating Gardner-Webb and Tubby should try to earn an NCAA bid, but down the road that would be a blast.
what you say here can, and will, be used against you
That WILL Happen
The next time both earn NCAA bids. UK vs. Minnesota, no doubt about it.
by FortyYearCatFan on Oct 3, 2008 11:16 AM CDT reply actions

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