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Tubby vs. Brewster Debate

I found this debate interesting on the scout board and thought it would spark some interesting conversation here as I prefer the intelligence of this blog's readers.  (How's that for sucking up?)

There are a lot of people that think Brewster should be fired and we should hire someone like Tubby to take his place.  Notwithstanding the fact that those coaches aren't lining up at the door to take the job, I feel there is a bit of a double-standard by those who aren't happy with the job Brewster is doing and are overly happy with Tubby.

It has everything to do with expectations for they are the reason coaches are fired and that is the point he is making.  So far Tubby has taken perhaps the worst team in the Big Ten and broght them up to the 7th best team in the Big Ten last year.  This year has yet to play out, but most are predicting a 5th place finish in the Big Ten.

 Currently, we are the 7th rated team in the Big Ten in football, sounds like a similar finish to last year's BB team, does it not?  Yes, I realize we could drop with a loss to Iowa this week and probably will.  These are the numbers today.

 The perception is that we were already a middle of a road team under Mason and the BB team was under much worse shape than the football team when each coach took over.  I would argue that the football team would have been terrible under Mason in 2007 as well, since the good recruiting class of 2003 was gone and the rape scandel in which we lost some of our best players more than likely would have happened anyway.  Both coaches have taken over bad teams and brought them to the middle of the pack in the conference, with Tubby being at the upper middle and Brewster at the lower middle if you will.  It is much much much easier to turn around a BB program.  One or two players makes can make much more of an impact and the kids don't have to be as strong which takes more time and conditioning.

 The fact is that Brewster receives much more critisism than Tubby, because he raised the expecations himself.  People are turned off by his infectiously "positive" attitude and talk about Rose Bowls, especially the media.  Why, we all know that this is his goal and he didn't say he would do it immediately.  Did you want him to say his goal was to beat 4 division II teams every year and win a couple of Big Ten games taking us to the Insight/Alamo Bowl?  If that's the case, then we should have kept Mason.

 Now conversely, Tubby has never said he would bring us to the Final Four, or even the sweet 16, so it's ok not to expect it right?  Sure, Tubby had higher credentials coming in, but we are talking about what they are doing for the Gopher program not the past.  If we finish 5th in the Big Ten again and win the first round of the NCAA tourney I would not consider it a failure either, but it wouldn't be any better than Brewster taking us to the Insight/whatever lower tier bowl we would go to this year.

 I am excited for this year's basketball team and love Tubby as a coach (mostly on defense).  My expectations are a top 3 finish in the Big Ten for both of the programs.  Of course, I don't expect it every year.  I just can't get too excited about the mediocrity that we have seen so far from both programs.  (9-9 doesn't prove to me the program is turned around)  Personally, I won't give Tubby a pass just because he didn't say he would bring us to where we all want to be.  

 If you think Brewster should be fired already, then we should probably get rid of Tubby too.  Forget Dungy, let's just go out and get Bill Belichek and Phil Jackson.  I can't think of any reason they wouldn't want to come here.


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I have to disagree

Brewster deserves another year. The U needs to give him another year. Next year he will be playing only/mostly his players and that is how you judge a football coach who is a recruiter.

Secondly, making the NCAA tourney is significantly harder than making a bowl game. Making the tourney is like getting to a BCS Bowl game. Going to the NIT, etc would be like the insight bowl.

Thirdly, Tubby’s team looks like it could be ranked all year this year, I am still waiting for that from Brewster. Yes, putting together a ranked football team is harder because of the larger number of moving parts (teams that are multiple times the size).

Fourthly, Tubby’s teams will only get blown out by top ranked teams. SDSU isn’t going to come into the barn and hang tooth and nail. I have waited for ten years to have the U put together a basketball team I can feel good about from a talent and floor execution standpoint. Still waiting on that for Football. I will give Brewster another year or maybe even two. If I still don’t have a team that can at least hang with any teams outside of the very best and actually finish off weaker opponents like they should be finished off, then I have had my limit of Brewster. But until then…oh well.

by TheEvilProfessor on Nov 18, 2009 1:13 PM CST reply actions  

Your first statement agrees with me?

I made the point that Brewster deserves more time, so you agreed with me there.

Your second point that making the NCAA tourney is like making a BCS game is way off base. If that were the case the Gophers football team would be in the BCS with a win against Iowa this week since they would finish 4-4 in the Big Ten. Remember, our BB team was 9-9 in the conference and a 10th seed in the tourney. Seven teams made the NCAA tourney from the Big Ten last year, that is very comparable to making it to a bowl game.

I’m not basing it on the potential the BB team has this year, that remains to be seen. At this point it is just specualtion or hope. This will change in March as we have another year to look at.

Tubby’s best win was against a very tired Louisville team on a neutral court, we didn’t really have a chance at beating Purdue or MSU in either game. We are a very athletic basketball team and play great defense, which keeps us in every game. Our lack of offense clearly showed against superior teams that also play defense. (Texas, MSU, Purdue) I do agree that we need to give Brewster another year or two and share in your frustration in that.

by Narby on Nov 18, 2009 2:13 PM CST up reply actions  

Rebuttal

First point was that I as one of the fans are not immediately calling for Brewsters head and am not really sure how many think he should be. It seems that you are painting with really wide brush strokes there.

Point 2 is that you don’t get into the NCAA tourney just because of number of wins. You have to have a couple of quality wins. @ Wisconsin, beating Illinois, Louisville, etc qualify. Do you really think that any selection committee would pick the gopher football team for a premier bowl game? Because that is exactly what happened for our Bball team last year. College Bowl games are more about attendance than talent. Remember that bowl games are the equivalent of all basketball postseason (including conf tourneys) tourneys, not just the NCAA. I believe there are at least three post conf tourney tournaments. So I am not way off base.

You don’t have to Tubby hate because you feel Brewster gets a bad rap and doesn’t get the fan patience like Tubby does. Just call an impatient idiot an impatient idiot and let it be. Tubby has done a fabulous job and raised the profile of the basketball team so that top prospects at least consider us. Why would anyone complain about that? He took a team to the NCAA tourney in year 2 and in year one they went to the NIT (I believe)…aka the Insight Bowl :). I feel you on Brewster but you are way off base on Tubby.

by TheEvilProfessor on Nov 18, 2009 2:34 PM CST up reply actions  

my take

1 – agree that Brewster deserves at least another year. The quicker the hook the harder it will be to get a quality coach in here next time. In college football you just have to give coaches a chance.

2 – It is much easier to get into a bowl game than to earn an NCAA tournament bid. Just look at the percentages. Football has about 120 teams and there are about 35 bowls available. That is nearly 60% of all teams make a bowl. Basketball has about 320 teams and 64 make THE tournament (20%). I would argue that making NCAA tournament is equivalent to making a good bowl which Minnesota has not done in a long time.

3 – rankings are kind of meaningless

4 – Tubby has at least shown that he beats teams he should beat and is capable of outcoaching or getting the most out of his teams against teams he shouldn’t beat. Brewster really has no significant win over a team that was clearly better. Mich St was a very nice win but then it was followed up by an egg against Illinois and SDSU.

This really isn’t a debate.

what you say here can, and will, be used against you

by GopherNation on Nov 18, 2009 4:43 PM CST up reply actions  

Oh Yeah

I forgot about Tubby’s quality wins over MSU, Purdue, Michigan, Ohio State, and Texas??? Louisville played the night before, then had to fly to Arizona on a neutral site. They were dead tired, but it still is a nice win. For the most part, Tubby beats the teams he should and loses to the teams he shouldn’t, that is how you get a .500 conference record. The results to date have not been absurdly better that this isn’t even worth discussion.

320 basket ball teams, let’s just count the ones who have ever received an at large bid. Winning the SE Monroe Tech conference gets you in the tourney with very little hope of making the 2nd round much less winning it. If it is so much easier to win a bowl game, why does the Big Ten send about the same number of teams to the NCAA tourney as they do to bowl games every year? Getting to the NCAA tourney is not a lofty goal, we were just beaten down so much during the Monson era we think it is a big deal.

by Narby on Nov 18, 2009 7:07 PM CST reply actions  

we don't always send as many

basketball teams to the tourney as we do to bowl games. The SEC only sent three teams last year. The big ten has only sent that many before too, but we already have lined up at least 5-6 bowl games every year for teams with loosing big ten records and .500 records overall. For the most part if you aren’t even close to .500 in your conference and significantly better than that overall…you don’t make the tourney. This isn’t a debate. Ask college analyst who covers both sports even a little and they will all tell you that the big dance is harder to get into than a bowl game like the insight bowl.

You are taking a much harder view of Tubby than you are of Brewster. You don’t need to compensate for everyone else’s ignorance. If you truly believe that Tubby is no better than Brewster…then I am sorry for you. Fact of the matter is that Tubby has won a championship. That is always hard to do. Especially in single elimination tournaments.

by TheEvilProfessor on Nov 19, 2009 7:34 AM CST up reply actions  

The differences I see ....

Narby,

You make fair points about the relative success of both programs. But there is one thing in my mind that separates what Tubby’s done from what Brewster has.

Coaching acumen: In Tubby’s first two years it was clear that we didn’t have the talent to compete. We shouldn’t have defeated Louisville last year with the talent we had. We shouldn’t have defeated the Eric Gordon Indiana team in the Big Ten Tournament with Travis Busch playing against guys maybe 2 times his size.

The fact is, Tubby can coach. He’s not a brilliant offensive guy, but I can’t remember a game under him where the team didn’t seem to be well coached. I’ve argued a couple times with Tubby’s calls out of timeouts, but for the most part it’s been hard to complain with Tubby’s decisions, because most of the time they have put the Gophers in a position to win.

I could go on and on about why, but I think it’s fair to say Brewster hasn’t displayed the coaching acumen anywhere near the level needed to excel at a mid-level Big Ten program.

Maroon and Gold Headquarters: The Daily Gopher

by PJS on Nov 19, 2009 6:34 PM CST reply actions  

I would still equate

the NCAA with a BCS bowl (or only slightly lower) while the NIT would be equivalent of the other bowl games.

by TheEvilProfessor on Nov 20, 2009 7:06 AM CST up reply actions  

I would say

if you are one of the last 2 teams in the Big Ten(most years) being pick for the Tournament, that is the same as going to the Insight Bowl.

"they're calling insane hogs???"

by CrowTrobot on Nov 20, 2009 8:17 AM CST up reply actions  

Very True

I totally agree with that, but I think we knew we would be going through some growing pains as a coach who has never coached a D-I team before this. Couple that with the fact that we can’t seem to find any continuity with coordinators and it takes longer for football players to develop into their full potential and this is the reason we need more patience with Brewster.

As for Tubby’s team, I am cautiously optimistic. We haven’t played anyone yet, so we should know more after the Butler game if we can really compete with the elite teams. We know our defense will be great, but will we be able to shoot the 3 this year against good defenses unlike last year. I know there is a lot of excited people about this years team, but how many times can you be let down?

by Narby on Nov 20, 2009 9:39 AM CST up reply actions  

I think we'll be top 3 in the Big Ten

but I do get scared by the cold shooting spells, hopefully our defense will pick it up when we go cold.

"they're calling insane hogs???"

by CrowTrobot on Nov 20, 2009 10:33 AM CST up reply actions  

I would like to agree ....

…. but I didn’t see any significant strides from RSIII last night or Colton. And w/o Mbakwe and Royce, that means our inside game still leaves much to be desired. When you couple that with average at best outside shooting and improving, but not yet top-notch athleticism, our offense is going to sputter at times.

Then again, one game is an awful small sample size. And Rodney might be the best athlete in the Big Ten.

Maroon and Gold Headquarters: The Daily Gopher

by PJS on Nov 20, 2009 6:15 PM CST up reply actions  

Same team as last year

We would have to get an unbelievable amount out of Williams and Cobbs in order to finish 3rd in the Big Ten. I think MSU, Purdue, and OSU are clearly better. We will be slugging it out with Illinois, Wisconsin, Penn State, and Michigan for the 4th, 5th, or 6th spot. I just don’t see the scoring threat that would allow this team to win more than one NCAA tournament game. Hope I’m wrong, but I just don’t see it.

by Narby on Nov 20, 2009 6:30 PM CST up reply actions  

Ralph

Sampson looks really good to me this year, to me he looks the most comfortable, really smooth. I expect really good things from him this year.

"they're calling insane hogs???"

by CrowTrobot on Nov 23, 2009 8:15 AM CST up reply actions  

he looks like a more complete player

that shouldn’t get pushed around as much. You will see significantly better rebounding numbers and a little more offense out of him this year. Another year working on his post game this offseason should really help his offensive game and efficiency.

by TheEvilProfessor on Nov 23, 2009 8:27 AM CST up reply actions  

Crazy Talk

Sure Brewster gets another chance. No coach should be given the boot without having his entire roster from his recruiting efforts.

But Tubby is The Man. There are seven Big Ten teams in the Top 25 in basketball and the Gophers are one of them. Three of those teams are going to be in the 5 through 7 spots in the Big Ten final standings. This year we have a very strong basketball conference.

Get rid of Tubby because he came in 7th in the Big Ten? He has coached 20+ win seasons for the last 16 years. Including the last two Gopher seasons with players he inherited from the Monson era.

I won’t even discuss the three National Coach of the year honors.

Tubby is building a solid, athletic team capable of playing his style of basketball which has done pretty well over the last 16 years.

Give Brewster a chance to do the same thing but come on. Tubby vs Brewster is a ridiculous comparison.

by Play Hosea on Nov 20, 2009 11:18 AM CST reply actions  

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