Defensive Ends positional preview - Upgrade / Downgrade
by GopherNation on Jul 27, 2010 10:29 AM CDT
in Gopher Football
Email
PrintWe did this for a few position groups last year and I wanted to get back to this as we begin to preview the upcoming Gopher football season. In the Upgrade/Downgrade previews we'll take a look at last year's major contributors and this year's expected contributors. Then it is up to you to decide if this is an upgrade or a downgrade (or neutral).
I'm going to start with the defensive ends as this is the position group I think I am most looking forward to watching this year. Defensive ends generally (this is very broad) have two key responsibilities. 1-contain plays, do not let the QB or RB get the edge and force everything back to the middle. 2-on passing plays they need to get pressure on the quarterback.
Last year's defensive ends were pretty good at holding the edge, but we really struggled to get the QB. The Gophers ranked 2nd to last in sacks last year which is a decent indicator of how well this group was able to pressure and bring down the opposing QB. Obviously within that number are also LB and DT sacks but for the purposes of this preview we can assume that our ends did not excel at sacking the QB. But of the 22 sacks the entire defense recorded the ends accounted for just 8.5 of them.
As far as helping with the run game, I believe this was an area of relative strength for out ends. Barrett Moen and Cedric McKinley were solid against the run. As a total unit the Gophers ranked 7th in the Big Ten for rushing yards allowed. Not spectacular but certainly good enough. The majority of the tackles were recorded by the linebackers and safeties but McKinley led all defensive linemen in tackles and one could argue that Moen led the team in taking up a blocker to allow the linebackers to make a play.
Enough said, let's get to who is gone and who is still here.
2009 defensive ends no long with the Gophers
| Ht | Wt | Games | Starts | Tackles | TFL | Sacks | |
| Cedric McKinley | 6-6 | 282 | 11 | 9 | 35 | 7.5 | 2 |
| Barrett Moen | 6-4 | 282 | 13 | 13 | 22 | 3.5 | 0.5 |
| Raymond Henderson | 6-5 | 263 | 11 | 0 | 7 | 1 | 1 |
| Derrick Onwuachi | 6-5 | 262 | 6 | 0 | 8 | 0 | 0 |
McKinley was a beast and Moen was a consistent starter but they combined for just 2.5 sacks and 11 tackles for losses. Not exactly outstanding numbers for either of them. Henderson never lived up to what Gopher fans hoped he would be and his senior numbers is an obvious reminder. While I loved our defensive tackles in 2009, our ends were not the strength of the overall unit.
2010 defensive ends
| Ht | Wt | Games | Starts | Tackles | TFL | Sacks | |
| Anthony Jacobs | 6-2 | 289 | 13 | 4 | 19 | 4 | 2 |
| D.L. Wilhite | 6-4 | 233 | 11 | 0 | 4 | 3 | 3 |
| RaShede Hageman | 6-6 | 272 | REDSHIRT | ||||
| Kendall Gregory-McGhee | 6-5 | 241 | REDSHIRT | ||||
| Matt Garin | 6-4 | 220 | REDSHIRT | ||||
At the very least I am expecting this group will match last year's production. Jacobs, in limited time, has basically the same stats as Moen did. Moving from his sophomore to junior season and getting more downs (assuming he is a DE this year), I am going to assume that his numbers will improve and should be in the neighborhood of McKinley's 2009 production. The other end spot will likely be split between Wilhite and Hageman. Possibly Hageman on most running downs and Wilhite coming in as the pass rushing specialist.
The 2009 group was OK but seriously if I would have been given a blank sheet of paper and told that my life depended on writing down the 2009 Gopher 2-deep. I think I would have completely forgotten to put Moen's name down. Maybe that is an indictment on me or maybe he was just not memorable. I'd love to see his numbers up against every other end in the Big Ten who started all 13 games. He wasn't terrible and he rarely made a big play, making him anonymous.
The 2010 group you see above are all young. Jacobs is a junior, Wilhite is a sophomore and the rest obviously will be redshirt freshmen. Even with their lack of experience I think they will outperform the 2009 group of ends. Then entire group in 2009 totaled 8 sacks, we are returning 5 of those and I'm certain this group will hit double-digits this year.
There are some question marks here though. Clearly Wilhite and Garin are rather thin, can they hold up on 1st and 2nd down or 3rd and short against Big Ten linemen? Ra'Shede Hageman was a TE last year, can he make the transition to playing DE? We four of our top five players who are just starting their second year of Big Ten football, what kind of production can we realistically expect from them? Mistakes are going to be made but can they get better throughout the season? And 22 sacks in 2009 is pretty bad, can this group get to the QB on a more regular basis and get that sack total up around 30? Finally, if the sacks go up can these guys also keep the run game contained and get off blocks to bring backs down?
It is also possible that Jacobs will see more time at DT considering how thin that group is. If he moves inside then that changes the ends production, probably dramatically. For now I'm going to assume he starts at DE and maybe moves inside on passing downs.
Probably more talent but lots of questions. Will this position be an upgrade or a downgrade?
41 comments
|
0 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
I say upgrade.
If for no other reason, the position is an upgrade based off of the potential of these young players.
by MinnesotaCatFan on Jul 27, 2010 10:47 AM CDT reply actions
The one thing that jumps out to me is the weight issue. That is going to be a huge problem in the 3rd and 4th quarters of games.
The lightest Middle Tennessee State players I see on their line, who will likely play, are no lighter than 280. Same with every Big Ten team on the roster.
Even though Wilhite is a good speed edge rusher, there’s a quick way to circumvent that if you’re concerned about him – run right at him and give your OT a TE to help. I know nothing about football and I think I’d do that.
That might be my ultimate concern about the Gophers’ 2010 defense beyond the inexperience – it’s too small. The DTs are big enough, but the starters at the DE position are a little light and their backups will get mashed by upperclassmen. Also, the LBers are all about 10-20 pounds too light (based on their current roster listings, they might be heavier now).
Moses Alipate weighs more than any one of the projected starting LBers. That’s not a goodt thing.
the thing about the weight
is that those numbers are the same as the 2009 roster so I assume they’ll get updated in August. Still not huge guys along that line but I assume the young guys will have put on 20 lbs or so.
what you say here can, and will, be used against you The Daily Gopher
by GopherNation on Jul 27, 2010 12:46 PM CDT up reply actions
Two things
1) I thought Hageman got moved to DE either last summer or early in the fall.
2) I believe he also played quite a bit of OLB/DE in High School. I scouted a game where he was an absolute terror off the edge. It was against inferior competition, but most of Washburn’s competition is inferior (except one non-conf game they schedule and once they get to about section finals or so).
Overall position: Upgrade, I believe.
Everyone fails. The successful learn from their failures. I just wish we'd quit giving ourselves so many learning opportunities.
by WhiteSpeedReceiver on Jul 27, 2010 11:26 AM CDT reply actions
(1) you’re right.
(2) banking on RS freshmen linemen, on either side of the ball, is a scary proposition. Given the depth chart, we’re asking Hageman, a first-time starter, to play 60 plays a game against men up to 4 years older than him that might have FB or TE assistance? I can’t see how that is considered an upgrade unless the only thing asked of him is to speed rush. On running plays in the 4th quarter, Hageman and Wilhite are going to be the targets.
Steve Davis...
…is probably the exception to the rule, but he was a monster in 2005 as a true freshman. So its not unheard of to get great production out of a young guy (though I agree that relying on your RS Frosh isn’t ideal).
No way those weights are current
Garin and Wilhite’s listed weights match the numbers from their Rivals profile. Those profiles were done the summer before their senior year in high school. In other words, these guys did not allegedly gain a single pound in two years. Yeah, right. They do not weigh 220 and 233 right now. No way in hell.
I’ll take all your words for it, but I don’t get why the University of Minnesota wouldn’t have updated these guys’ weights in anticipation of 2010 spring practice. FIRE THE INTERNZ.
that might give opponents a competitive advantage
or something
what you say here can, and will, be used against you The Daily Gopher
by GopherNation on Jul 27, 2010 2:11 PM CDT up reply actions
Brad Nessler: And let’s go to the sidelines with Holly Rowe.
Rowe: Yes, thanks Brad. I’m down here on the sidelines, and Lane Kiffin looked shocked, absolutely shocked, upon looking at the Gophers’ defensive front seven. Matter of fact I heard him get on the radio and tell the new OC, Kennedy Palo, to rip up the game-plan because they found out Matt Garin, Rashede Hageman, and Keanon Cooper are TEN pounds heavier than the Gophers’ online roster listings. The USC sideline is scared, pensive, and unsure as to how to attack the Gophers….
My goodness, yes, Matt Barkley just threw up in Kyle Prater’s helmet. Brad, back to you………….
With Lane Kiffin...
would that scenario really surprise you?
Everyone fails. The successful learn from their failures. I just wish we'd quit giving ourselves so many learning opportunities.
by WhiteSpeedReceiver on Jul 27, 2010 10:49 PM CDT up reply actions
The myth
that Lane Kiffin is a bad head football coach should have died last year, when he took a team with 3 quality players and went 7-5, only lost by 10 at Florida, and really should have defeated Alabama.
And I’m sure the obscene amount of cash they spent on his coordinators had nothing to do with that. His overall track record has more question marks than successes, though I’ll grant that the biggest question marks all come from his temperament, apparent immaturity, and unrivaled ability to generate controversy off the field.
Defense(ive) Ends
I would be very suspect of a defense led by Kevin Cosgrove. He prefers a read and react type of defense which doesn’t work too well against equally matched teams. Not only that, he has trouble communicating his philosophy clearly to the players which results in confusion.
So my guess, you will be disappointed in the defensive play because, even though they are capable, the players will not be able to reach their potential due to confusion and a flawed approach to defense.
This year will probably be so so, but by the third year, things will begin to tank.
That can all be avoided if Cosgrove will move to an attacking style of defense, where the defense becomes a weapon all its own. If that happens, well, let’s just say, the difference will be night and day. If not, the sun won’t be shining on the D.
he may fail
but I don’t know that you can take his Nebraska failures and assume it will play out exactly the same. He also has Cross as his co-DC and maybe he learned some valuable lessons from his Nebraska days.
He may very well fail, I’m not going to assume he’ll be a huge success just because I want him to succeed. But lets slow down a little bit here before assuming it will be Nebraska all over again.
what you say here can, and will, be used against you The Daily Gopher
by GopherNation on Jul 28, 2010 10:12 AM CDT up reply actions
Question...
If Cosgrove isn’t going to work here, then I don’t get the argument that year 3 will be the “tanking year”. Why wouldn’t it be this fall with a newer defense? If his scheme sucks that bad and he can’t coach kids up, wouldn’t a young D with plenty of new faces be the perfect time to for these problems to show up?
Third Year is Mostly His Influence
By year three it is pretty much all Cosgrove’s teaching and philosophy that will be in place. Although, perhaps having a co-defensive coordinator will make a big difference. Here in Madison, everyone was glad to see him go.
It’s definitely possible that I underestimate him, or that he can improve. I want to see Minnesota do well, particularly with the new stadium in place.
Weight?
First off weight won’t be an issue
Hageman is 280 at least and I’ve heard reports of 290+. That’s NFL size for a 3-4 end and great size for a college 4-3 end
Jacobs will play both DE and DT and I’m guessing on likely run downs he’ll be at DE opposite Hageman giving us another 285+ lb DE. That’s plenty of size.
KGM is apparently a physical monster these days and is around 250lb which is good size for a DE
Garin is supposedly around 240 which isn’t bad for a 6’3" type of guy
Whilite is anywhere from 235-245 apparently as well.
KGM and Garin are still probably on the thin side for their frames so they’ll get bigger in future years but Hageman and Jacobs are plenty big for running downs. Plus I wouldn’t be surprised to see Kirskey move to the 3 gap with the big frosh DT in at nose in goaline situations.
The LBs aren’t huge but they aren’t tiny either. Tinsley is very physical and appears to be around 235lb (he came in at 220lb and looked just a bit smaller to Campbell to me). Rallis is said to be up to 230+ which is plenty of size at OLB. Coop is still slender but is pushing 220. All in all we’re not huge but we have 2 HS safeties on the edges that both have DB speed so we should be ok.
As for Cosgrove his D played pretty well last year and they did a fair amount of attacking. The guy had a year out of football to assess his own performance and I’m guessing he learned a little bit. He’s a solid DC that will have success here if he has the athletes to succeed.
Wow
We are really that bullish on the D-line?
Are these new players really that much better talent-wise than the upperclassmen who have left?
I just don’t see it. Of course, Brewster praises everyone for being more athletic, but I don’t really trust his candor when it comes to evaluating his own team. He seems to think everyone is great.
yep
Yes these guys are much more talented than the guys that are leaving
Hageman – wanted by every school in the midwest, pretty much the entire country
Garin – recruited by most of the conference and even west coast schools, very athletic DL
KGM – excellent athlete, pretty highly recruited
Whilite – more athletic than any senior on the line last year by far
Remember that McKinley was a JUCO that we beat nobody for, Moen was a walk on, Henderson was much weakened from getting sick and being injured. Those guys maxed out their ability but every single one of the new guys is more athletic by far than any of them. The RS frosh alone were a DE class that everyone in the B10 other than maybe OSU or PSU would’ve loved to have, and Whilite has a lot of potential as a pass rusher and had as many sacks as all the seniors despite playing maybe 10% of the snaps
That's all well and good
but I’ll give you a number when it comes to Hageman and Garin:
Zero.
That’s the total number of snaps that they have taken part in in college football. For anyone here to expect anything other than growing pains as these guys figure out their way in year one playing college football is beyond delusional. I can name on two hands the TOTAL number of freshmen who come in and play at the level that would cause them to outperform the seniors they will be replacing.
In two years, you guys are right – these players MIGHT and SHOULD be better. Now? Do me a favor….
I think
it is more about last year’s group really not being all that good more than this year’s group is going to be outstanding.
Jacobs is easily capable of equaling the production of Cedric. Then the combo of Hageman/Wilhite is easily capable of out producing Moen’s sack / tackle total. And I expect that Garin/KGM can manage to contribute more than 15 tackles and 1 sack for the entire season.
All four guys we are losing combined for 72 tackles and just 3.5 sacks. The TWO guys returning combined for 23 tackles and 5 sacks. Outproducing 2009 is very realistic.
Nobody is predicting all-conference here, but the statistical production last year was overall pretty weak from our ends.
what you say here can, and will, be used against you The Daily Gopher
by GopherNation on Jul 29, 2010 12:16 PM CDT up reply actions
I recall...
everyone hyping our offensive line last year with new guys stepping in. Look at how well that worked out…
I agree with JG…there are going to be some major growing pains. I hope I’m proved wrong and there is a noticeable talent/athletic difference.
Weights are way off
I know one of the youngmen below and he tells me that currently….
Hageman is 295
KGM is 270
Wilhite is 250
Jacobs is 295
Garin is 245
This group is still working on strength and technique, but the strength coaches are doing a great job and the competition is pushing all of them. Coach Cross is quietly building a monster d-line. Hageman and Wilhite will start, but Jacobs may rotate in at DE and DT, and KGM will back up both Hageman and Wilhite. Garin will also back up Wilhite. If they all continue to improve and stay healthy, there could be a rotation that allows the DEs to stay fresh throughout the game (assuming the offense does their part). What this group lacks in experience, they make up for in speed. This defense is much faster than the group in 2009. Not sure how this season goes, but if they can get some confidence, they’ll be ok. By 2011, watch out!
I like the versatility of their size and strengths. For example, Hageman is strong as a mule and he will draw double teams. That will help Kirksey and Edwards get into the holes. Wilhite and Garin have the best technique, so let’s hope they can stay healthy. KGM is still learning the position, but might turnout to be a freak. He is getting the size he needs and he has great speed. Jacobs is the utility man. He can play anywhere on the line and he can do it well. Again, if healthy, this group could create a lot of confusion for an o-line. I hope that’s how it turns out. Go Gophers!
You need to hear this too:
Hageman is a redshirt freshman. Anything he provides is a bonus. To expect him to be a contributor is folly.
its not ‘folly’ when that RS frosh has beat out a RS junior that’s been playing for 2 years for the starting spot. Jacobs has been a solid (if unspectacular) player for us and the fact that it appears that Hageman has beat him out for the spot (to this point) shows that he should at least be able to perform at a higher level than Jacobs has in the past. I noticed no drop off between Jacobs and the starting DE’s last year and he played a ton. If Hageman is already better than Jacobs its reasonable to assume that he’s as good or better than the DE’s from last year. Add to that the reports that he was a monster at times in practice last year and I believe it. Our departing DE’s lacked both technique and athleticism, but they were strong and could hold their ground. If Hageman can simply hold his ground this year he’ll already be as good as those guys and by all accounts he has much more athletic ability.
Now I’m not expecting him to come out and dominate, but our DE’s last year were simply very very poor in the passing game and fairly solid in the run game. Its not asking a lot for a guy with his talent to replicate that.
Hageman
Will likely be listed as a Freshman All American at season’s end. He could have played last year, no doubt but it was a good decision to hold him back. The S & C program has done well for his further development and will inhance his playmaking.
Frosh All American
Keep in mind that Wilhite hit Phil Steele’s AA list from his play last year. Considering that bar, Hageman will definitely gain such recognition barring injury of course. So I guess we have a bet. But first, what is a juicy lucy?
a hamburger with cheese inside of the patty, the cheese squirts out and burns a hole in your tongue.
"they're calling insane hogs???"
FOLLY?
It is quite obvious that you have not seen this young man play at all. It is foolish to expect anything less than immediate impact when he plays. He is the best DE on the roster. Need I say more?
I don't think that will get you very far
Just saying that someone is going to be good with little reliable data (high school stats, weight, 40 time, etc, are not very reliable indicators) isn’t really going to convince us.
I hope he is as good as you think, I just don’t see how is going to amount to that in his first real season. The number JG quoted above, “zero”, is the best indicator for me right now.
Practice?
Either you subscribe to the AI definition of practice or you think same is done with non Big Ten Athletes. Either way, you are not giving same enough weight. Hageman has exhibited abilities in practice against Starters that give us a peak as to how he will likely do in a BT game. Face it guys, you can say I have not seen him about any Frosh accross the country. Kind of a cop out don’t you think? Again, Wilhite was a Frosh last year and did fairly well.
Juicy Lucy
MustStart28, there are a couple joints who claim to have invented the JuicyLucy. I think the consensus is that Matt’s Bar (total dive) is the true inventor but the 5/8 Club would take exception to that.
We should plan a TDG Juicy Lucy outing some Friday night or Sat before a night game! Who’s with me?
what you say here can, and will, be used against you The Daily Gopher
Sounds Like A Plan
Good quality Gopher Fan fellowship and delicious juicy burgers? Very luring. I would be in and either night game would likely work for me.
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Certain photos copyright © 2012 by Associated Press or Getty Images. Any commercial use or distribution without the express written consent of Associated Press and Getty Images is strictly prohibited.
