National JUCO Signing Period, The First Piece of the 2012 Golden Gopher Recruiting Class
by GopherNation on Dec 21, 2011 1:38 PM CST
in Recruiting - Football
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PrintDecember 21st is the national mid-year signing date for junior college transfers. Jerry Kill and staff have hit the JUCO ranks pretty hard trying to get some experienced talent into the program. Five guys are expected to officially sign the dotted line and bring their talents to Minnesota.
One running back who may be your feature back next fall, one wide receiver who will likely be a depth guy and three defensive backs. I would expect that at least one of the DBs, maybe two of them will be starting in September 2012.
Nothing official has yet been released but these are the expected signees.
| James Gillum |
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Position: RB Measurables: 5-11 /195 Videos: none Rankings: Notes: Gillum recently finished up his JUCO season amassing 1,297 yards and 16 touchdowns as a freshman at Mississippi Gulf Coast C.C. and then another 1,047 this past year. Out of high school Gillum was a lightly recruited back from a small town in Louisiana. Kill's staff recruited him to Northern Illinois but grades became an issue and he was forced to the JUCO route. But those two years have prepared him for BCS level football.
There is a huge hole to fill at RB and Gillum will have every opportunity to be the go-to back for the Gophers next year. |
| Jeremy Baltazar |
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Position: CB / S Measurables: 6-0 / 196 Rankings: Notes: Baltazar recently was named honorable mention on the NJCAA All-America teams. The defensive back can play safety if needed but was told that he was being recruited to play corner. A great position of need and I fully expect that Baltazar will see plenty of playing time in 2012 for the Gophers. He was the first JUCO defensive back to commit after a handful came to visit the weekend the Gophers lost to Wisconsin. Baltazar will be a December graduate and assuming everything goes according to plan he will be on campus for spring practice, giving him more time to acclimate and to be ready to play this fall. |
| Martez Shabazz | |
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Position: CB Measurables: 5-11 /170 Videos: none Rankings: Notes: Shabazz enjoyed his official visit to Minnesota but the following week was enamored with Baylor's upset win over Oklahoma. He committed to Baylor, but admission issues prevented that from going through. Prior to his Baylor visit he sounded as though Minnesota was his clear-cut leader. When admission issues set in, he quickly switched to Minnesota.
Shabazz is a fast corner who should greatly help the secondary with his speed alone. |
| Isaac Fruechte |
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Position: WR Measurables: 6-3 / 210 Videos: [1] Rankings: Notes: The Caledonia prospect spent his first season, post-high school at Rochester Community College. When offered a scholarship from the Gophers last June he immediately accepted and is very excited to play for Minnesota.
He is a unique JUCO in the fact that he only spent on year playing at Rochester and will have three to play for the Gophers. Wide receiver is also a position of need for the Gophers. |
| Briean Boddy |
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Position: CB Measurables: 5-11 / 175 Videos: [1-high school highlights] Rankings: Notes:Like Fruechte, Boddy will have three years of eligibility at the U. Technically he has four years to play three so if they wanted him to redshirt, that is also a possibility. Boddy played his high school football in Delaware and was lightly recruited so he took his talents to Coffeyville C.C. in Kansas. Clearly he improved his stock enough to garner this BCS offer, which he took. There can't be too many kids who take the Delaware to Kansas to Minnesota route. Boddy finished his season at Coffeyville with 40 tackles and 4 interceptions. |
Rumor has it that we are still pursuing defensive tackles as that is a huge position of need. When that DT is signed I will update but for now these are the five guys JUCOs who have verbally committed to play for Coach Kill.
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Looks like
We’re gonna have a lot of Z’s in the backfield
"Believe in the system. For it shall bring light when there is dark, food when there is hunger, and shots when there are passes. This is the divine process." Yeo 4:18
Curb your enthusiasm
Shabazz can play at this level and will help us, but the others can take a hike. Does anyone really believe Freuchte can run a 4.4? 4.9 is more like it. Signing recruits like this smells like desperation.
just curious
what you are basing this judgement on?
I am not thrilled by Freuchte or Brody. But what is your criteria for saying Shabazz is Big Ten caliber but Gillum and Baltazar are not. Not saying I agree or disagree, you just speak with such conviction.\
what you say here can, and will, be used against you The Daily Gopher
by GopherNation on Dec 21, 2011 2:49 PM CST up reply actions
Glad you asked
Remember what Mitch Browning said? “If you have to look hard to find a reason to offer them a scholarship, then they aren’t good enough”. When you visit all the recruiting sites, watch their films, read between the lines on what is written about them, and still nothing hits you that they are going to be good, then it is safe to say they won’t be. Couple that logic with less than average faith I have in this coaching staff’s recruiting prowess and it becomes clear that what walks like a duck is a duck.
so what stood out about Shabazz?
what you say here can, and will, be used against you The Daily Gopher
by GopherNation on Dec 22, 2011 10:18 AM CST up reply actions
Do not sleep on Fruechte
Or did we not learn anything from Eric Decker? I’m not saying he will become as successful as Decker (perhaps he never pans out) but he’s a Minnesota kid (someone who wants to be here), similar build, and Decker was listed as a 4.54 40-yard dash after his college career, so he was not exactly someone with blazing speed either. He is a coach’s kid as well, so he should have high football IQ.
If we’re going to talk about locking up home-state kids, we have to take some fliers on players like Freuchte. Would I prefer he be a walk-on first? Sure, but taking a talent from a successful high school program and the most successful junior college program in state with three years remaining is fine by me.
What is going on?
This isn’t good.
What happened to Maturi and Kill saying that they needed to build a program for the long haul? If we rewind 3 years or so you’ll recall that I was complaining up a storm about Brewster’s proclivity for signing junior college kids because of what they do to stunt young players’ development, and then they leave before they provide any true long-term benefit for the program. Example: wouldn’t it be great to have a fourth year guy in the program at RT next year? Well, instead we got the Jeff Wills experience for two years. That experience almost got Adam Weber permanently injured in 2009. And how about WR? Would a true junior WR have helped last year and this to take the focus off McKnight? Instead, we were blessed with Hayo Carpenter.
With the vast majority of JUCOs, they need one year to get up to speed with a program, and then you get maybe one good year of production. That is, if they’re not fumble prone (Carpenter anyone) or just not cut out for major college football (David Pittman).
I just don’t get this. No other Big Ten school operates like this, taking 5+ JUCOs at a time. If Jerry Kill truly has the support to establish a long-term program at the Big Ten level, he should be recruiting high school seniors who can stay at Minnesota for 4-5 years and lay a foundation for his team.
And think of the cost financially to a program of having such churn – you have to recruit more kids every year because more frequently leave the program (taking a dent out of one of the smallest recruiting budgets in the Big Ten). Your academic staff has to spend more time trying to get kids (who didn’t have the academic chops to make it into NIU, for example) acclimated to a high-quality academic institution. And then the staff has to waste time trying to KEEP those guys eligible. It wasn’t a coincidence that Kill showed up with over 50 guys (his words, not mine) with academic concerns – a number of those players weren’t cut out for college to start and so it would always be a struggle. And now Kill wants to bring in MORE dudes like that? Yikes.
Maybe, in fact, Jerry Kill is learning the reality of coaching at Minnesota – he is always going to be 8th or 9th in line in his own conference, at best, when trying to recruit the best high school talent in the Upper Midwest (his 2012 haul so far is the worst in the conference), and so the only way he can compete is by bringing in stop-gap and junior college players. But doing this now is really frustrating, because it’s not like Minnesota has a chance to be any better than .500 next year WITH these guys.
I'm going to let someone with more recruiting chops than me explain all the reasons why this isn't a huge deal.
But one major one is the imbalance in the classes. There are too many underclassmen and not enough upperclassmen on the team. Thus, JUCO’s have less of an impact because they leave fewer holes. We also face severe shortages of talent and bodies in key positions. Going JUCO is pretty much the only way to address that more immediately.
Most of Brewster's guys
that were supposed to be the core of our junior and senior classes have left. 5 JUCO guys isn’t going to fundamentally change this program.
The majority of big time football programs take JUCO guys (Auburn had Newton and Fairley through that route) If 3 or 4 years down the road, we’re still picking up this many guys, that will be disappointing, right now, it’s giving us a chance to patch up some real positions of need (3 CBs and an RB) with guys that might be able to contribute next year.
The reason why there was such an imbalance on this roster in the first place was because……..Tim Brewster recruited a ton of JUCOs because he determined there was a shortage of talent and bodies in key positions.
Ironic, isn’t it? It’s a cycle that never ends. The only way to end it is for the coach to have the firm support of the AD (which I thought has been repeatedly stated) and to build from the ground up, meaning, these JUCOs should be high school seniors. We were told this would be a long-term process. Signing a bunch of JUCOs is essentially talking out the other side of the mouth.
That's not the full reason for the imbalance.
The fact that his normal recruits didn’t stay in the program was at least an equally large (if not larger) part of the problem.
You’re approaching this in black and white terms when it isn’t a black and white issue. As GN notes, continued reliance on JUCO’s causes a problem. So would too many JUCO’s in a single class. But we haven’t seen either yet.
If I remember some other recruiting talk correctly, I believe some of the players who enroll early might be able to be counted against last year’s class (take this with a grain of salt, I’m recalling something I read on The Hole). If true, that further reduces the “too many JUCO’s in 1 class” worry.
We are insanely desperate for help in the secondary
And every team. EVERY TEAM. Takes a few JUCOs every year.
Fundamentally wrong statement. 7 or 8 of the teams in the Big Ten have 0 JUCOs signed. Michigan and Northwestern rarely if never take them. Stanford and Notre Dame and Cal NEVER have.
And if Minnesota is desperate for help in the secondary, Kill should be recruiting Yuri Wright, Armani Reeves, and other top CBs with the lure of starting from day one.
I like the enthusiasm
but there’s also something to be said about picking your battles. I’m not sure if the staff has enough time and resources to be the 5th place choice for a bunch of 4 and 5 star CBs.
The best CBs on ESPN are committed to Alabama, Michigan, Auburn, Texas, Notre Dame and Florida. These guys turned down a bunch of offers to start immediately at places that won a lot more than 3 games last year.
I’m not saying, don’t try to recruit these guys, i’m saying try to be aggressive with promising younger players and build relationships, try to recruit the area and secure the border (our 1 ESPN150 player is from MN)
By the time the entire SEC has offered a player, Minnesota isn’t going to be winning that battle.
it's like saying
I should be recruiting more swimsuit models to be my girlfriend.
if they’re a swimsuit model, i’ve already missed the boat.
That’s somewhat of a problem, don’t you think? Even Brewster got 4 star studs to come to Minnesota for a year or two.
Depends.
If he never gets them to come here then yes, it could be an issue. Or, he could be the kind of coach who turns ok recruits into solid contributors and good recruits into great players in his system. We have no way of knowing. I do know it’s better than he is able to nab solid/pretty good kids if he keeps them here over Brew’s 4 star dropouts or never get enrolled kids.
Yes.
It is somewhat of a problem.
Kill isn’t a perfect coach. If he was, we wouldn’t have been able to hire him. But, like GoA said, I’ll take a guy who has a plan and can coach over a guy who can recruit but can’t do anything else.
I’d prefer to have both, but I’d also prefer that we were in a state that produced more than 5-8 BCS level recruits per year. Such is life.
Today
I watched a 2 star QB and a 1 star RB lead a roster with exactly zero 4 star recruits (with several JUCO recruits, late qualifiers and even a post-grad in the past 5 years) dominate an AQ Big League State School in a Warm Climate with Attractive Ladies kind of Program.
Good coaching, program continuity and player leadership go a long way in winning. And if you think this example isn’t relevant because Boise isn’t in a AQ conference, then you didn’t watch the Oregon (twice) Virginia Tech, Oregon State or Georgia games.
by TwinATL on Dec 23, 2011 1:40 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Kellen Moore
was deemed the 162nd best QB in his class.
Minnesota recruit Clint Brewster was rated 8th.
Again not to say that recruiting rankings are useless (the Top 10 that year included Jimmy Clausen, Ryan Mallet, Tyrod Taylor, Cam Newton and Jarrett Lee) but that very good recruits on paper can fail and that 6 foot noodle-armed QBs can win 50 games with the right coaching, system and players around them.
by TwinATL on Dec 23, 2011 1:55 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
You're right, there are exceptions
but that’s why they are exceptions. I could name 50 programs with similar recruiting profiles who don’t do shit.
You missed the point
recruiting information can be important, and when you’re trying to compete at the national level, it’s pretty damn important to have those absolute game changers (Matt Barkley, Tim Tebow, Cam Newton, Terrell Pryor, Trent Richardson, Julio Jones come to mind, no one missed on those players)
but given the differences in the level of competition and scheme, a lot of the recruiting information below those sure fire studs is more or less based on an echo chamber…so and so (i.e. Florida) is recruiting said player therefore they are good, therefore other good schools (i.e Georgia) also recruit them. if a player never gets into the cycle (Eric Decker comes to mind) then they never get hyped up, they’re labeled a 2 star player (like Justin Blackmon) by someone that’s seen them in a youtube video, or maybe 1 game and everyone gets upset when they get recruited here.
There are lots of programs that have managed to do just fine without being dominant on the recruiting trail (admittedly, these programs don’t tend to compete for the national title, but can do very well)
Boise, Kansas State, Baylor, TCU, Houston and Southern Miss aren’t traditional powerhouse programs but they’ve gone out and beaten a lot of teams that run circles around them in the recruiting world (Georgia, Arizona State, Texas, Texas A & M, Miami, Oklahoma, Mizzou, UCLA, Virginia) this season
Are they exceptions? yes, they’re the teams that have succeeded without the same level of raw talent, but what they have in common is that they have good coaching and good execution. If Kill can do that, he’ll win.
I am partially with you
I don’t think JUCOs should be part of your long-term plan. But in this first year he is bringing in several freshman DBs and adding a few more experienced ones that might be able to contribute this year.
It should also be noted that 2 of the 5 will have 3 years of playing eligibility, that is at least better than bringing in juniors.
what you say here can, and will, be used against you The Daily Gopher
by GopherNation on Dec 22, 2011 10:23 AM CST up reply actions
also
i’m amazed by the amount of vitriol that some people manage to obtain about recruiting decisions when the information consists of basically 1 or so grainy youtube videos, some measurables that may or may have not been fudged and statistics that without context for competition or scheme are also likely to be misleading.
I don’t know these guys, there’s a reasonable chance that no one here has seen any one of these players in an actual football game and the amount of group think involved (Baylor was recruiting him…therefore he must be good) is pretty high.
What I do know is that our secondary got torched last year and worst case scenario bringing in a couple guys with some college experience to challenge Vereen and Henderson or slide back and play safety (if you can name the starting safety tandem against UNLV, you’re practically psychic) is a very good idea.
I'm sorry
I don’t see it cutting off. If I could see the problem I could try to fix it.
what you say here can, and will, be used against you The Daily Gopher
by GopherNation on Dec 22, 2011 10:24 AM CST up reply actions
Here are the recent JUCO signing classes for Minnesota
2007: Serge Elizee, Logan Uu, Marc Cheatham, Eric Small, Durell Clark-James.
2008: Simoni Lawrence, Traye Simmons, Tramaine Brock, David Pittman, Rex Sharpe, Cedric McKinley
2009: Hayo Carpenter, Jeff Wills (this class in general is amazing – Hasan Lipscomb, where is he? Kerry Lewis, Moses Alipate. And remember the STAR CB Kenny Watkins and his dad posting here and at Scout? Sheesh).
2010: Christyn Lewis, Tiree Eure, Herschel Thornton, Dwight Tillman
2011: Drayquan Crawford, Ge’Shun Harris, John Rabe.
Look at that list, and honestly answer this question: out of all those guys, how many would you have rather had for 2 years instead of recruiting a random 3 star kid from Florida, Texas or California and developing the kid at the same position for 4-5 years?
Out of the 20 listed above, I would say maybe 4 were worth it (Small, Lawrence, Simmons, McKinley). I would add Brock but he was only here one year and he was torched crispy against Michigan and during 55-0. But we’ll always have 2008 Indiana.
What are your sources for that info?
Because mine tell me that Moses Alipate was recruited out of Jefferson High School right here in Minnesota and Kenny Watkins was from Brother Rice High School in Birmingham, MI. If you’re going to make an argument, at least use factual information. Also, we shouldn’t be using Tim Brewster’s recruiting classes to make a point about Jerry Kill. The current DBs are just not good enough/experienced enough to be starting so some JUCO help is needed. I really don’t see recruiting a shit load of JUCOs as a long term plan for Kill. It’s a temporary solution to a problem created by Brewster. Don’t be so cynical before actually seeing the results on the field.
by Kevin Werner on Dec 22, 2011 1:00 PM CST up reply actions
I think you're misreading his statement.
Moses gets mentioned in the parentheses with Lipscomb/Lewis and the comment “this class in general is amazing”. After listing the 2 JUCO’s I think JG was just hitting on a related point that in his mind the 2009 class was just a bust in general and that Moses was a part of that bust.
The more I think about these JUCO's
and read their bio’s, the more negative I get. This incoming recruiting class has a MAC feel to it. I am in agreement with 2112 regarding this issue.
It's not the first time I've heard the "MAC" comparison...
…so it’s probably worth noting that for accuracy, this class has more talent (by stars) than even the highest rated MAC class. I think what you’re getting at is that in your mind it has a “lower end of the B1G” feeling to it. Which, oddly enough is what the ratings services seem to think.
Looking at Rivals for this season you see the following (I’m blatantly stealing this from a poster over at The Hole btw):
MAC’s best class – Temple
29 verbals, 2.12 star avg, 3 3-stars; 2 total BCS offers, 10 total non-AQ DI-A offers, 15 total DI-AA offers; 16 recruits with no other offers
Minnesota
26 verbals, 2.62 star avg, 13 3-stars; 23 total BCS offers, 31 total non-AQ DI-A offers, 13 total DI-AA offers; 8 recruits with no other offers
Now Kill keeps alluding to the recruiting services having some of the commits wrong so god only knows how this ends up shaking out past the 5 guys who already signed, but this is the snapshot in time as of 12/16/11 when it was posted.
Everyone Calm Down
JG2112 what’s the best way to get better recruits in here???? WINNING. You can’t take your “lumps” as you call it, lose a ton of games the next few years, and think we will be in the mix for top tier recruits. I agree with some posters that a handfull of years down the road if we are still signing 5 JUCOs we are in trouble. Let me break this down for everyone:
1) Sign JUCOs this year and possibly next to even out the classes and bring in immediate help and impact players in order to show improvement on the field and increase in wins
2) Once most of Brewster’s recruits are through our program and we are in a more stable place as far as recruits, numbers, depth we can limit our JUCOs signings to emergency areas only.
Also, this is not an indication that Coach Kill doesn’t have the backing of the administration. Hate to break it to everyone but the stadium was practically empty in the last game against Illinois. My friends an I were the only people in our row and there were muliple ROWS around us completely empty. We need improvement NOW for the simple fact of fan support, donations, revenue, etc. and signing JUCOs that can step in and help immediately will be a big help to this program building effort.
Brewster got a ton of high-profile recruits to come here
without winning. I wish people would stop making this patently false argument. You can list (and I have) a ton of coaches that have been able to recruit top prospects to non-winning programs based on their ability to sell the program.
That is a weakness of Kill. It just is. Brewster sucked at everything else, but he could recruit.
Brewster's recruiting...
Was a joke. He had no plan or reason for the players he selected. How do you recruit for a system if you keep changing your system every year? That was a rhetorical question because you can’t.
by skhamlin on Dec 22, 2011 11:22 PM CST via iPhone app up reply actions
You're missing the point
You’re talking overall planning. The statement was made that we can’t get 4 star guys until we start losing. That is completely false. Everything else is a separate argument (which everyone fails to realize when this subject is brought up).
I don't get it. What's the problem with JUCOs?
Besides being a partial academic risk and only playing for the short term, I don’t really see a problem. The main issue that I personally have with JUCOs is the academic angle. Most players of junior colleges are there because they couldn’t get into a Div-1 school. Either that or they were so under the radar that they simply weren’t offered. This doesn’t necessarily mean that JUCOs aren’t talented. I actually find the opposite to be true most of the time.
The fact of the matter is that the depth simply isn’t there. I kind of feel like Kill has to recruit some JUCO transfers, and Gillum in particular makes sense because Minnesota is desperate for a running back and Kill already had tried to recruit Gillum to NIU. (At the time, Gillum didn’t qualify academically.) I don’t really see the problem in taking a junior college guy with two years of coaching and experience under his belt as opposed to staying with wet-behind-the-ears freshmen. Especially when you’re desperate for someone at that position.
As for what you guys are saying about Minnesota’s recruiting status in the Big Ten, that’s just a fact of life. I’ve said numerous times that until Minnesota is a little more stable Kill is going to have to go after the best MAC recruits. He has, and as someone said, he now has a better incoming class than any of the MAC schools. Don’t forget, his NIU squad whipped Minnesota. I personally wouldn’t mind seeing something like that in maroon helmets at the Bank.
People who are anti-Jerry Kill jump at this news (and reference recruiting issues?). People who want him to succeed point to this not hurting.
I guess I am confused at the anti Jerry Kill crowd. His staff has recruiting questions/concerns/issues? Really? And this crew of a handful of Juco’s strengthens that concern in you?
Maybe I’m all rosie for Jerry…but I don’t feel like recruiting has dropped off since he’s been on board. I’d argue in-state it has improved. Buzz is there. Nelson and others are recruiting their in-state guys to stick around. Jerry and Co. is hitting the pavement in Tejas and Florida and California and anywhere else he can. He’s got contacts at every level in every state. I’m just not overly concerned about it, long term.
I’m with MR…I’d take Jerry Kill with the top MAC recruits (but deeper than MAC teams)…and we’ll be just fine in the Big 10. It will, of course, lead to us getting better than the best MAC recruits as we show improvement…but damn…still the negativity toward the Gophers and this staff just irks me. What is the point?
You seem like an intelligent fellow
so I’m really confused why you seem to view every issue from a completely black/white dichotomy. You can voice a concern without being “anti-Kill”
Very few of our recruits are wanted by any other BCS programs. You may not think that’s an issue, but I do. When we are competing with Western Michigan and Sam Houston State, that’s a problem.
You think we’ll be just fine; you may be right, but for now, I think it’s a reasonable concern.
Also, of the guys with other serious offers
Kill is 2/5 in-state. That’s hardly something to hang your hat on.
2 for 5 with what the program is right now...
…seems like a win to me. So my point is, you see what you want to see.
He landed 2 big in-state recruits based on a vision and a promise. Nothing else.
I'm actually excited about our Minn kids
McDonald has serious attitude issues and I’ve heard from a few different people we should be thankful we didn’t land him. Had he stayed committed I’m sure I would be ignoring those comments but I’m OK with not landing him. Davidson just moved to the state so nobody had any reasonable expectation that we had any chance at him. And apparently Johnson was never really interested in Minnesota. You can’t force kids to stay here.
I really like Pirsig, Hayes and Nelson; and I think they’ll be multi-year starters. I believe that Rallis and Williams will be solid contributors. I like our in-state kids that we landed.
I can see the argument for wasting a scholarship on JUCOs who may be the next David Pittman, but I don’t have any problem with our local kids.
what you say here can, and will, be used against you The Daily Gopher
by GopherNation on Dec 24, 2011 10:48 AM CST up reply actions
And further, my logic flow was we get the better of the MAC recruits, along with some “bluer-chips”, maybe only in-state at first, but enough to make a difference. We then show improvement…4 wins, then 6, then 7. As that is happening, buzz is being created, and naturally more 3 and 4 star guys at least list us in their final consideration, we land a few, along with some diamonds in the rough who were not highly recruited. Along with new Nike uniforms, we start winning games.There is excitement in our high powered offense that has been a part of Kill’s past.
I don’t think this is unreasonable, even remotely. This is the only way Minnesota football will ever be successful, without some form of divine intervention in each game. Perhaps I have no choice but to believe….
I think I know why jimipig is upset, Gophermike.
You can voice a concern without being "anti-Kill"
That’s true, but then there’s this:
Very few of our recruits are wanted by any other BCS programs. You may not think that’s an issue, but I do. When we are competing with Western Michigan and Sam Houston State, that’s a problem.
I generally like to think of myself as a reasonable person, and I have to say that this sounds very “anti-Kill.” It just comes off like you’re pointing the finger at Kill and saying “dammit Jurry why u no get five-star guys?”
And then for you to say that this is a concern but somehow doesn’t involve Kill or your opinion of him just seems flat out false, considering that Kill is in charge of recruiting. “I’m not anti-Kill, nothing is black and white, but why the f**k is our recruiting class only better than MAC teams?” I don’t think jimipig is that far off in taking issue with your opinion. It does seem very much against Kill, or at least not satisfied with Kill. (You’re certainly welcome to your own opinion, just please don’t insult our intelligence and suggest that it has nothing to do with Kill.)
I think you need to realize something about recruiting: Minnesota is not an elite program. Yes, it is a Big Ten team, it is in a BCS conference, it has a brand-new stadium, a great commitment from its athletic department, a very eager fan base that wants a reason to cheer, and now brand-new uniforms. These are all good selling points. But it can’t compete with other Big Ten teams who have the same thing (Iowa, Wisconsin) or better (Michigan, Ohio State).
That’s not going to happen until Minnesota starts winning. And that’s not going to happen until the program gets turned around, and that’s going to take a while.
Look at the facts. Jerry Kill was not the sexy hire. He’s not a big-name coach. So why do you expect his second recruiting class to be a world-beater? Kill is a career rebuilder who I’m assuming knows the secret to rebuilding programs: you recruit the guys you can get, and you develop the guys you have. Kirk Cousins was a 2-star guy out of high school whose best offer was Michigan State. Now he’s likely going to be a second or third round NFL draft pick. Perfect example of a developed player.
I’ve said several times that Kill’s No. 1 priority has to be to secure the Minnesota border, get the best guys in-state, and then go after the best MAC recruits (where he won’t have any Big Ten competition). For him to go after the same guys as the Big Ten powers or SEC powers seems like a waste of time. There is talent in the MAC. He got talented players while at NIU. He’ll get the same or better at Minnesota.
So, should it be a concern that he’s competing with Western Michigan for recruits? Right now, no. It shouldn’t be. Unless those prospects are only interested in staying close to home, there really won’t be any competition. Minnesota, at least on principle, trumps all MAC teams. It’s only when Michigan et al. throw their hats into the ring that Minnesota has a problem. (Fwiw, it should be a concern in five years, if Minnesota is still only able to get MAC guys. But right now, chill out, man.) Eventually Kill should be competing for the same guys as Iowa and Wisconsin, but that’s a far cry from where the program is today.
It's reality
If you think that’s “anti-Kill”, so be it.
I think you need to realize something about recruiting: we are behind Indiana, Duke, Kansas, and every single BCS program in the county. Nobody is expecting we compete with Ohio State and Michigan, but I’d like us to be able to compete with Rutgers and North Carolina State.
“Jerry Kill was not a sexy hire”- No, he wasn’t. Does that make me wrong in some way? That seems to only reinforce my point.
Again, it’s not only when Michigan throws it’s hat into the ring. Let me provide a few examples of our head-to-head with similar programs*:
Iowa State: 1-3
Mississippi: 0-3
Indiana: 1-2
Pittsburgh: 0-4
Purdue: 0-2
South Florida: 0-2
Vanderbilt: 1-2
West Virginia: 1-5
Are these great programs? You’ve created a strawman, and I hope that you’ll either be willing to admit you were doing so, or that you were uninformed. Nobody is expecting to compete with Michigan, but the reality is that we aren’t competing with anybody.
*There are also some non-BCS programs we’ve lost recruits to, but I’m hopeful that was due to offers being pulled or academics.
That said, can Kill make this work?
Of course he can. But let’s try to take off our Gopher glasses and see our recruiting for what it is.
I think it’s entirely reasonable to look at our offer list and be underwhelmed.
Sure you can be underwhelmed.
It’s probably easier just to be…well, nothing. I used to get all excited about recruiting thanks to Brewster. And I learned that recruiting rankings can be fools gold. I’d rather see what happens on the field, after the kids have been signed and have actually seen a practice or 2 before being all crazy one way or the other. Recruiting is important, but it’s also something that can be easily over/underestimated when the kid hasn’t stepped on campus.
by GoAUpher on Dec 23, 2011 4:25 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I certainly don't live and die by them
But I do care if we’re the only BCS program to have offered a player. There’s something comforting about at least one other program wanting them.
Rec'd.
It’s probably easier just to be…well, nothing.
Exactly. 100%. Agree x1000.
I used to get all excited about recruiting thanks to Brewster. And I learned that recruiting rankings can be fools gold. I’d rather see what happens on the field, after the kids have been signed and have actually seen a practice or 2 before being all crazy one way or the other. Recruiting is important, but it’s also something that can be easily over/underestimated when the kid hasn’t stepped on campus.
Yes. Well said. So astutely said.
by Meager Reader on Dec 23, 2011 6:08 PM CST up reply actions
P.S.
“I hear what you say, but I’ll trust what you do.”
Anyone can talk a good game (Brewster), but they have to back it up.
by Meager Reader on Dec 23, 2011 6:15 PM CST up reply actions
Where are you getting your numbers?
Because we’ve beaten WVU for 2 players (Hinjosa and Harbison) according to Rivals. Slight nitpick.
I didn't create a "strawman."
Iowa State: 1-3
Mississippi: 0-3
Indiana: 1-2
Pittsburgh: 0-4
Purdue: 0-2
South Florida: 0-2
Vanderbilt: 1-2
West Virginia: 1-5
Are these great programs? You’ve created a strawman, and I hope that you’ll either be willing to admit you were doing so, or that you were uninformed.
All of those programs you listed are better or more attractive than Minnesota. At least in my eyes. That you expect Minnesota should be competing with them RIGHT NOW is what I disagree with. Minnesota simply isn’t good enough yet to sweep the board. This point is hardly a straw man. (Unless your definition of “straw man” is an opinion with which you do not concur. In which case, I think you, sir, have the straw man.)
I think you need to realize something about recruiting: we are behind Indiana, Duke, Kansas, and every single BCS program in the county. Nobody is expecting we compete with Ohio State and Michigan, but I’d like us to be able to compete with Rutgers and North Carolina State.
Maybe you need to temper your expectations. I am fully aware that Minnesota is behind all those programs. Nowhere did I say otherwise. I don’t have a problem with Minnesota’s recruiting situation because of where the program is right now and the fact that other schools are quite frankly more appealing. Not everybody grew up dreaming of becoming a Minnesota Golden Gopher as a kid.
"Jerry Kill was not a sexy hire"- No, he wasn’t. Does that make me wrong in some way? That seems to only reinforce my point.
Your point being that Kill is doing something wrong? Minnesota is not a sexy job. Kill is not a sexy hire. He’s not a recognizable name. He’s building a foundation at Minnesota. That means most of the guys he’s recruiting are not going to be elite. But if he can develop them the way he did at NIU, Minnesota will eventually be very good.
Nobody is expecting to compete with Michigan, but the reality is that we aren’t competing with anybody.
That’s Minnesota, not Jerry Kill. Again, temper your expectations.
by Meager Reader on Dec 23, 2011 5:47 PM CST up reply actions
Fair enough.
But you have some stunningly low expectations if you think all of those programs (Indiana!) are better than use.
My expectations at this point
are pretty much zero. I understand that Kill is in the midst of a rebuilding process, and that takes time. Programs like Michigan State and Iowa have done pretty well without five star recruits, especially early in their coaches’ tenures. The fact that Kill put together a team at NIU that trounced Minnesota and went on to win 10-3 and competed for the MAC title (both his final year and the one after he left) tells me that he is either really good at recruiting sleeper prospects or has a knack for developing players. If Minnesota resembles anything close to his NIU team in a few years, I’d be pretty happy.
However, I should note that my expectations would rise as the years progressed, which is natural. If Kill is still struggling to get anything done on the field by year three or four, then I’d start to question his ability to teach fundamentals and develop players. Until then, though, I’m pretty much content with whatever he puts on the field. These guys are so used to losing that all Kill can really do at this point is try to change that. To some degree, he already has (see: Iowa game).
by Meager Reader on Dec 24, 2011 6:41 AM CST up reply actions
Just to clarify, when I say
“I’m pretty much content with whatever [Kill] puts on the field,” I mean in terms of recruits. Obviously mental mistakes and bad fundamentals will irritate me. But if the guy is a 2-star or 3-star, it really doesn’t matter to me. I’m more interested in how much or how well Kill will develop him.
by Meager Reader on Dec 24, 2011 6:50 AM CST up reply actions
I am too
but I don’t see how people can deny the correlation between recruiting and wins. I don’t disagree with your general premise that we should temper our expectations for recruiting, and that coaching ability will overcompensate for recruiting losses.
All that said…the numbers are super bleak right now.
I guess it's the whole
“being burned by Brewster” thing. I’d much rather have a disappointing or lackluster off-season and be pleasantly (and unexpectedly) surprised when the season starts than have a really exciting off-season and watch highly-touted recruits completely burn out. So I try to go in with as little expectations as I can.
I agree, however, that recruiting needs to be the life-blood of your program, but you’ll go nuts if you look at the Gopher class compared to Michigan’s or Alabama’s (or even those mid-level guys you named). It’s simply not worth it. If I look at recruiting at all, I look to see if the guys are in-state and are at least being considered by the MAC. That means Kill is meeting my two priorities for his initial years. That’s what I’d consider a good start.
by Meager Reader on Dec 25, 2011 1:48 PM CST up reply actions
IF ONLY it were that easy
it is not nearly as simple as saying We should be more attractive than Indiana so therefore we should land 100% of recruits who are considering both of us.
There are SO many factors that go into recruiting and every single kid has a different set of criteria.
By this logic we should never even try to recruit kids who are offered by about 8 or 9 teams in the Big Ten.
what you say here can, and will, be used against you The Daily Gopher
by GopherNation on Dec 24, 2011 12:29 PM CST up reply actions
Not at all.
By this logic, the numbers suggest that Jerry Kill isn’t very good at winning head-to-head battles, at least not yet. This isn’t a small sample size. This is 28 players, of which we got 4. You can’t simply chalk that up to circumstance.
it is 1 recruiting class
Which is a very small sample size. Sometimes, even with kids not being pursued by blue chip programs, a kid is offered a scholarship but he is a lesser priority on our list. I just don’t think that going “1-2” against Indiana is noteworthy in the slightest.
Both of the “losses” to Indiana were JUCO linebackers (David Cooper and Darius Stroud). We are bringing back two starters, our two most used reserves and Beal. I’m guessing playing time is a pretty big factor for a JUCO linebacker.
Not sure why we offered these guys but very well may have rescinded when others committed or we offered but did not heavily pursue. Whatever the case, losing them to Indiana is not at all a big deal.
what you say here can, and will, be used against you The Daily Gopher
by GopherNation on Dec 27, 2011 10:42 AM CST up reply actions
Except Indiana is just one of 8 examples.
Many of our recruits were clearly fall back guys when we lost our first preference to schools like Iowa State and Purdue.
clearly it was just one school
but the point is losing those two recruits is not a big deal, the “1-2 vs. Indiana” is meaningless. As are probably may of the “lost battles” on the list.
what you say here can, and will, be used against you The Daily Gopher
by GopherNation on Dec 28, 2011 9:45 AM CST up reply actions
it looks good
Soon we will be back to Glen Mason era. Can kill take us to the next level is the real question.
by DallasGopher on Dec 23, 2011 4:30 PM CST via iPhone app reply actions
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