Tubby's Gophers Lose Fourth Straight
by PJS on Feb 10, 2011 10:59 PM CST
in Gopher Basketball
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PrintThe Gophers left Williams Arena Thursday night having lost its fourth straight, second straight at home, and fell to 5-7 in conference play. At this point, there should be no talk of the bubble or NCAA berths. This is an NIT team right now. Nothing more.
If you've watched the last four games, you've seen that the Gophers have a beast in the paint named Trevor Mbakwe. They have a sharp-shooter named Blake Hoffarber playing point guard. After that? Ralph Sampson III has his moments in the paint. But no one has stepped up to fill the void left by injuries to Al Nolen and Maurice Walker or the transfer of Al Nolen.
Maverick Ahanmisi hasn't stepped up at the point guard spot. His defense is atrocious.
Rodney Williams, the would-be NBA talent, looks to be regressing. After flashes of potential, Rodney is struggling with simple decision-making. His passing is scary bad sometimes. And aside from an occasional defensive play, he's not helping Minnesota at all.
Austin Hollins and Chip Armelin have both had their moments. But during a crucial stretch, Hollins, who is now starting as a freshman, came free at the elbow for a wide open jumper. It was an uncontested shot that didn't even draw iron. The Gophers were down 4 at the time with 3 minutes left. I don't think you can win big time college basketball games when your starting point guard can't hit the rim from the elbow.
Point is, the talent that's on the floor for Minnesota isn't Top 25 talent. It's not NCAA Tournament talent. And that's why they've lost four straight. Blame injuries. Blame recruiting. It doesn't change the fact that this Gophers team, sans any legitimate guard play other than Hoffarber, is closer to the NIT than the NCAA.
During Illinois' 71-62 win, Mbakwe was great. He had 17 and 16. He had 10 and 10 at half time. And I have no clue why the Gophers didn't try to include him more in the second half. Sampson added 16 and 11. He was frustrating at times with his soft interior play, but this one isn't on Sampson. He played fairly well.
Where did Minnesota lose a winnable game? First, the Gophers had 2 bench points. Second, they committed 16 turnovers (4 apiece for guards Williams, Hollins and Hoffarber). And the Gophers were just 4-15 from three (and that included an answered-prayer bank from Williams). And while they pulled down 15 offensive rebounds, it didn't add up because they couldn't finish. Armelin missed numerous lay-ups. Sampson missed bunnies. Williams did too. The Gophers shot 36 percent.
Mike Davis led Illinois with 17 and 9. Demetri McCamey, who along with Mike Tisdale was benched to start the game, put up 17 and 4 assists. The Illini needed the win as much as the Gophers did, having lost 5 of 7 themselves. The win pulls Illinois to 6-5 in conference. Minnesota, at 5-7, has no more room for error if they intend to position themselves to be an NCAA team once Nolen returns.
And while it's hard to state, I for one just don't see this team as NCAA material. At least not right now. This is a post for another day, but as much as injuries, transfers and off-the-court headaches have played a role this season and last, so has this team's recruiting. The Gophers spent time on Justin Cobbs last season. He wasn't a Big Ten point guard and he transfered. The Gophers are doing the same for Maverick Ahanmisi this year. He's not a Big Ten point guard. Devron Bostick disappointed (or wasn't given an opportunity, depending on your perspective). I think the jury is still out on Armelin and Hollins, but it's clear that neither of them have even an average stroke from the outside. Perhaps it's unfair to expect more from this trio of freshman, as Nolen's injury and Joseph's departure forced them into more prominent roles. And Williams? I'm not sure he's NBDL material right now.
At some point, someone needs to step up and consistently help Blake and Trevor. A guard or wing needs to step up (Hello, Rodney!). Absent that, the Gophers will continue to sputter down the stretch even against the middle and bottom of the Big Ten pack.
Up next is a trip to Iowa to face a Hawkeyes team that has been playing fairly well. They won at Indiana right after Minnesota couldn't. We'll know after that contest whether it's time to begin looking forward to Jerry Kill's first team.
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We’ll know after that contest whether it’s time to begin looking forward to Jerry Kill’s first team.
(Sigh) Your right.
The hockey team isn’t exactly killing it either, and since the baseball team isn’t from the sunbelt, we shouldn’t get our hopes up
Dark times my friends, dark times
The cock is our friend------------if the minute hand sweeps faster.-BaylorWest
by thewild_viking_twins on Feb 10, 2011 11:06 PM CST reply actions
Well we have pitchers and catchers for Twins fans
But I’m frankly tiring of that teams playoff blunders.
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The offseason
hasn’t given much hope for a possible remedy for said blunders, unless trading your starting SS, decimating your bullpen, and floating the idea of trading your top starter is considered a positive…
The cock is our friend------------if the minute hand sweeps faster.-BaylorWest
by thewild_viking_twins on Feb 10, 2011 11:34 PM CST up reply actions
Yes
But Punto’s gone!
And I just had a strange thought. Joe Mauer reminds me of Ralph Sampson III. Ralph isn’t a natural star like Joe, but they both lack a certain toughness.
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Completely disagree
about Mauer. Sure, he doesn’t have the star personality, but he does it all on the field. He will never be a power hitter—the 2009 season was an anomaly. However, this isn’t a Twins blog, so I’ll save that discussion for TwinkieTown. For the record, I’m very bearish on the Twins this year for many of the same reasons that thewild_viking_twins poster mentioned above plus the offseason moves that everyone else in the division made.
Ralph Sampson is not a go-to guy. But he is a solid role player that averages about 11 points and 6 rebounds. He has his shortcomings, but he is still an important part of our team.
I look forward to debating Mauer att TT!!!!
I’m not too high on them either.
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It's obvious
but I’ll say it anyway, we need more SHOOTERS
not guys who can execute the off-the-rim-pass to our big guys
You can see it, other teams have zero respect for 3-point shooting, and they just collapse on everyone down low
The cock is our friend------------if the minute hand sweeps faster.-BaylorWest
by thewild_viking_twins on Feb 10, 2011 11:38 PM CST reply actions
Shooters, yes.
But no one needs to double our bigs, because the coaching staff has never developed low post games for our bigs.
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Let me ask you...
How does a coach develop a low post game for a Big?
last night Colton Iverson had two possesion where he made decent moves, one was a drop step and shot from 4 feet, the other a spin move to a hook. Both executed with nice footwork that got his defender off balance and put Colton in a spot make a relatively easy shot. Problem he clanked both shots. Thats not coaching, the kid has no touch, nothing that even remotely resembles finnese. How is that coaching. They taught him the move it’s his job to finish.
Trevor again put the ball on the floor to make a strong move to the basket. His defender was out of position which should have resulted in a basket but once again he dribbled the ball off his foot out of bounds. I am certain that Tubby has told him, be aggressive but in control, oh and by the way don’t dribble to ball off your foot. Thats not Coaching. how can he or his coaches stop a player from dribbling off his foot?
RSIII had a nice game (I guess when it is a matchup between the 2 softest big men in the Big Ten someone has to do well) last night. scored 16 and grabbed some rebounds. On two seperate occasions when he had position on his defender he opted for a fadeaway from 5 instead of going hard to the rim and either drawing a foul or giving himself an easy basket. I can only imagine how many times when watching film Tubby has called Ralph out and told him to go to rim instead of the jump shot. Its just not in his nature. Thats not coaching.
Point is, bad passing, lacksadasical offense, poor defense, these are things coaches can change. Players failing to execute simple basketball plays is not. These players either don’t have the talent we thought they did, or have lack of concentration is killing them. I am not sure what Tubby can change about either of those now.
Bigs
Colton tends to have a better repertoire in the post than the others, but he’s not as skilled. It’s clear the Gophers have worked with Ralph on his sky hook. He goes to that 9 of 10 times. It’s slow developing and not effective against quick defensive teams.
Mbakwe has shown limited skills with his back to the basket.
I think you develop a low post game by teaching footwork and post moves. With Trevors leaping ability, he should have a quick right handed hook over his left shoulder. Not the sky hook. That would allow him, with his quickness, to dominate defenders with a baby hook and an up and under. Not once has this group executed an up and under.
Finally, part of the issue is positioning on the low block. Ralph gets pushed around. Colton sometimes gets too low under the basket. Trevor does a better job, but they don’t feed him because he doesn’t have any low post moves. He needs to get to the basket for a layup or dunk.
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I kind of agree with you TC but I'd ask a different question
how many big men to you see that have an extensive (or even a two move) offensive repertoire? It just isn’t very common.
What would make all the difference in the world is if our bigs we able to establish themselves in a good position on the block (as PJS just said). Sampson makes no effort to get the ball on the block, he is content getting pushed out and then trying to get a lob.
When we have three solid bigs like we do, they absolutely should be able to work together with screens or just movement to get themselves in the right place on the floor to be in a scoring position. Having two or three good offensive post moves isn’t really as important as catching the ball closer to the basket where scoring becomes easier. Mbakwe can get it done because he is the one guy who gets the ball where he wants it, not 15 ft out from the hoop.
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by GopherNation on Feb 11, 2011 10:19 AM CST up reply actions
We need more than just shooters
we need an offensive threat. We don’t have anybody that is hard to defend or is a scorer. Hoffarber can shoot, Mbakwe can go crazy within 3 feet of the hoop and a lot of guys can make open lay-ups but nobody is a threat.
Really this team needs to play better together. We see it in stretches where we see some ball movement and screens and guys working together. At that time the offense seems to work but it doesn’t last very long. When we don’t have playmakers they need to play better as a unit and that’s not happening.
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by GopherNation on Feb 11, 2011 9:08 AM CST up reply actions
6 comments in the basketball game thread and 4 of 'em refer to baseball
Some might call that strange. Not me. I’m just thankful there’s ANY interest in Gopher baseball.
You really don't want my thoughts on Gopher baseball
I’d prefer the program went the way of Madison’s to save more money for the revenue generating sports.
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That would be sad, but only in the sense of the ‘oh that’s too bad’ comment you make to the weird lady at work who just lost one of her favorite fish.
by Erik T on Feb 11, 2011 8:25 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
There is room for baseball at the U
If you want to get rid of a men’s sport or two, here are a couple:
1) Golf – many of the scholarship players are not even from the United States… They can pay their own way if they want to come here. Besides, there are many other avenues to play golf at a high level – state amateur for one.
2) Men’s Gymnastics – do they even have gymnastics for boys at most high schools in Minnesota? No? Then get rid of it at college.
3) Tennis – see Golf. There are more players on the roster from outside the US than from Minnesota. And yes, I am a homer, after all it is a state (public) college.
I wouldn’t even go so far as saying they should not have opportunities, but they should not be scholarship sports, and they should not take money from the sports department. Pay higher fees, hold a bake sale, whatever, to fund your sport. And by the way, if you do cut the three above, then you can get rid of that stupid rowing sport at the U just for numbers sake.
I would say baseball has a fairly rich tradition here considering we are a northern climate. I know we’re not Wichita State or Texas, but there is room for baseball.
Good points. I agree with all of it. Hose should go before baseball.
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I agree, there is room for baseball but your points are off base.
The reason that this is even a discussion is that it is hard to have a college team here without a roofed stadium. The dome will be repaired and things will be back to normal next year, but now they will have to play a lot of games away from Minnesota for a good chunk of the season which isn’t viable long term.
Regarding scholarships, how many of the participants in the sports you mentioned above do you think get a full-ride? I highly doubt that any of them do. If anything, it would be the best player on each of those teams, but I really doubt that.
Tennis has a beautiful new indoor facility built in conjuncture with Ridder Arena in 2002 thus making it easy to have a normal season. Before the U had these courts on campus, they played matches indoors at Northwest Athletic Club. I know the tennis program is backed by some decent funding, so with these things in mind, it’s not going anywhere. Also, they use the courts for Adult league matches and other schools have the ability to rent court time and thus I am sure the U is doing fine with . (Yes, I am a tennis fan and have watched a few matches and have played in a few league matches on those courts).
I don’t know anything about Gymnastics, but would guess that Gymnastics isn’t hard to fund nor have a normal season, since it is an indoor sport that can use facilities that are already in place.
I also don’t know much about the golf program, but I wish I was good enough to play on a golf team in college. That would be the life!
I’ve finished compiling #sports vs FEI vs etc and will post the full results sometime soon (as soon as I figure out how to appropriately format the plots). There ends up being a very minor relationship between funding and FEI, apparently. R^2 of 0.42 for all D1A schools, but only 0.095 for BCS schools. Damned near nothing, as far as I’m concerned.
Very Good Analysis
I only saw the 2nd half on TV.
Gophers looked bad, no two ways about it.
by FortyYearCatFan on Feb 11, 2011 6:04 AM CST reply actions
No two ways about it is right,
Hard to play without a point guard and with a group of wings that are either over mustached or not ready.
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Haha
Damn auto correct on the iPad. Was supposed to be over matched.
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I couldnt even comment
The game is what I knew it was going to be….everyone playing their individual game and RSIII….7-17? Thats not so bad until you watch the tape of him blowing 5 or 6 layups/dunk chances….
Maverick Ahanmisi hasn’t stepped up at the point guard spot. His defense is atrocious.
This is SO true, his defense is the worst on the team. When his man has the ball and then passes it away. Mav stands up and turns his back on his man. This led to an alley-opp and a lay-up because he has no idea where is man is or that a screen is coming. He gets hit on every, single screen and he even when he’s on the ball, he doesn’t exactly apply any pressure.
Justin Cobbs never lit the world on fire but he is much better than Mav. Bryant Allen was a football player but I’m sure he’d at least apply some defensive pressure. Devoe wasn’t a point guard and his defense sucked too but at least he offered some offense. This guard attrition has destroyed this team.
what you say here can, and will, be used against you The Daily Gopher
Guard attrition and guard recruiting
It’s a combination. We wasted a year on Cobbs. Bostick, while more of a 3’ wasted a scholarship for 2 years. Will Mav stay? Should he? Chip, while intriguing, can’t shoot. Hollins, while intriguing, can’t shoot. It’s easier to withstand injuries or departures when you recruit kids that are B1G caliber. Armelin and Hollins might be eventually. Cobbs and Mav aren’t.
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I'd argue that Cobbs is B10 caliber
he was far better than Mav and he was picked up by Cal pretty quick. If Mav transfers it WON’T be to another BCS conference school.
what you say here can, and will, be used against you The Daily Gopher
by GopherNation on Feb 11, 2011 10:20 AM CST up reply actions
Cobbs Was Wooden POY In Calif HS Play
He’s a good player and will do well at Calif next year.
by FortyYearCatFan on Feb 12, 2011 10:59 AM CST up reply actions
I could have had a little more Mav last night
That or more picks rubbing Blake’s guy off.
His near technical push-off was proof enough. They kept hounding them with their bevy of guards and he was getting frustrated.
The thing about Mav, at least for a little bit, is he can face dribble them more effectively… opens things up visually. Blake, while an outstanding possession dribbler, often had to back the defense down thereby limiting his vision.
by InflectionPoint on Feb 11, 2011 10:55 AM CST up reply actions
Since everyone is pretty negative...
… I feel the need to be obnoxiously positive. This post may or may not reflect some of my actual feelings.
1. We won two of our three good wins without out Devoe Joseph. Therefore, if we can win enough games to sneak into the tourny, I think we could still win a few if they got their heads straight.
2. This is real cliche, but the bubble is sooooo damn soft. And there are now 68 teams. There are some real atrocious teams getting talks like us, Michigan State, Kansas State, etc. This still gives us a chance.
3. The end of this conference schedule is very winnable. I know we lost at Indiana. But even with our new lineup that was the worst game we’ve played all year. I don’t see that performance being repeated over and over and over.
4. We split the games the rest of the way and win two in the Big Ten tournament we’re in. Not saying this will happen, I’m saying is one of the many scenarios that would lead to us being in the tourny.
Don’t look at the overall record so much. We’re currently 5-7 in conference. You gotta be five hundred usually (unless you’re in the Big East and everyone loves you). That means we have to go 4-2 in the last six games. @Iowa I know they just played Wisconsin tough. After Sunday we will officially know if we can make the tournament or not. If we win this one, then I think we can. If we lose, then, yes, stick a fork in us. @Penn State- I’d say most dangerous game left on the schedule and probably a loss. But Michigan did win here so its not like Penn State is unbeatable. home vs. Michigan State and Michigan- The only team deteriorating worse than us is Mich. State. Hopefully the Barn can help. We beat Michigan without Al in the second half away, no reason we can’t do it again. @Northwestern- Beat them without Al at home, they’ll be out of it by then but no doubt a tough place to win a game (especially for us recently) but still very winnable. Home vs. Penn State- Senior night at the Barn losable and winnable.
Not saying we’re going to win all of our games but since they are all winnable without stretching your imagination too much, I think we still have a shot.
Then again you could probably call me crazy and not be too far off.
MSU looked like a determined team last night
That game scares me. I think we might be catching them at the wrong time, now that they’ve adjusted and might have righted the ship.
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totally agree
why couldn’t we have played them a week ago, they’ll have things figured out by the time they come here.
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by GopherNation on Feb 11, 2011 10:25 AM CST up reply actions
3rded. MSU timing is awful.
not please.
by InflectionPoint on Feb 11, 2011 10:52 AM CST up reply actions
mostly agree with you too
the season is not over and we have done a lot of work to get into the NCAA Tournament already. We can still get in. Our “resume” is good enough to get in even if our “roster” isn’t good enough to belong.
And really 3-3 might still get it done, though it might require a win in the B10 Tourney. The bubble is soft and there are more teams allowed in this year. And our resume is MUCH stronger than it was a year ago. The season isn’t over but it is frustrating to watch this unwatchable team.
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by GopherNation on Feb 11, 2011 10:30 AM CST up reply actions
No one has mentioned FTs
I have more to say, but once again shooting low 70s could have altered the course of the game. In the final 100 seconds or so an extra couple points may have allowed us to play D rather than foul.
Pretty much ties in with the shooting comments above. Free throws are atrocious.
by InflectionPoint on Feb 11, 2011 10:16 AM CST reply actions
Don't have the #s in front of me ...
… But more than % last night I was disappointed in our inability to get to the line. Ralph shies away from contact. Big Ten teams have learned Rodney wants to go baseline and he’s not getting to the basket. The % is bad, but so was our ability to get to the stripe last night,
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Rodney was bad last night
had had two just AWFUL turnovers on back-to-back possessions that lead to 4 points.
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by GopherNation on Feb 11, 2011 10:30 AM CST up reply actions
Those two TOs
From 30 feet from the hoop were another atrocity.
Here’s the thing… On a skill level, does Rodney even look like a D1 player? I’m most certainly not a hater, but he can’t dribble. He can’t shoot at all. He isn’t a mental player. He’s D is not more than average.
Barely a D1 player. He shouldn’t be starting.
by InflectionPoint on Feb 11, 2011 10:46 AM CST up reply actions
His length and athleticism is D1
I’d say he’s above average defensively. His length and leaping ability make him amgood rebounder. But he’s inconsistent in his aggressiveness on the glass. But offensively, he’s atrocious.
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Living and dying with the big men
Too many missed layups, missed dunks and missed free throw opportunities. They don’t have the guards. They can’t afford to have the big men play poorly. The defensive pressure has been lacking, especially for a Tubby Smith team.
Positives – Austin Hollins will be a good player someday. Rodney is playing better defense.
Austin will be a good player ..
…. if he adds a jump shot to his game. Right now he’s a less athletic version of Rodney with slightly better ball skills and instincts. Ever look at his jumper? He has a long, jerky motion where he basically launches the ball from above his right shoulder. Bad form at minimum.
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Austin and Chip
I’m hopeful that they will both take steps and be solid contributors next year. That is if Chip doesn’t leave (a la …?) because he’s being stifled. I kid. They’ll be good 4yr guys.
But next year is going to come down to Joe and Andre, is it not? Can they create, can they play some, errr alot (!) of PG?
Will anyone obtain a 3pt shot?
Trev, Colt, Ralph, Mo and Elliot present a formidable 35 feet, but we’re going to need some guards.
by InflectionPoint on Feb 11, 2011 10:51 AM CST up reply actions
I am so frustrated right now
This team has killed me all year. Just when you think the program is turning a corner, injuries and transfers have set us back. I know he is a young kid, and i truly wish him the best in everything he does, but can we offically consider Devoe Joseph a curse word in The Daily Gopher universe? I really feel bad saying it, but between Royce’s clown like behavior last year, and Devoe’s decision to leave mid season i feel those two have set this program back 2-3 years.
I mean Tubby got a legit 5 star player to committ to his program, a true blue chip player who could have made an instant impact, and he goes and steals a freaking sweater, and gets caught up in some stupid laptop scandal. I mean c’mon, that’s just our luck. Just behave yourself for 2 years and the world is yours. Royce had a chance to be the most dynamic player the Gophers have had in 15 years and Devoe might have been the 2nd, and they both turn out to be knuckleheads. Go figure. UGH!
I guess I can hope that Andre Hollins is legit. He seems to have his head screwed on straight, and his game appears to be of the high quality ilk, but something about this program seems to be jinxed. Double UGH!
Alright. I feel better.
I think everybody needs to calm down
A month and a half ago, when the Gophers were riding high, everyone was using the infamous kenpom numbers to show that the Gophs were a middle of the pack team. Well, now that we’re struggling, let’s use those same numbers to show we are still in that same category:
Illinois is the number 15 (!) team in the nation, according to kenpom. We were supposed to lose this game according to them. A win over Illinois, even at home, would have been our third best win on the season, trailing only the Purdue and North Carolina wins, which are, I still believe, our ticket into the tournament.
Every single one of our upcoming games is winnable. Does that mean I think we will win them all? No. But if we can manage to go 4-2 (and come on, do we really think we’ll lose to Iowa?) that would put us at 9-9 and on the right side of the bubble.
"If the world were perfect, it wouldn't be." - Yogi Berra
I am frustrated, too.
All this talk about the “bubble”. Aren’t we missing something here? Who wants to be even near the bubble at this point? Is that any accomplishment, being one of the top 68 teams in the country?
Is there anyone here who didn’t think that during Tubby’s 4th year the basketball program would be much further along than it is right now?? Team suspensions, transfers, academic ineligibilities!!! It is always something, and I’m sick of it. What good is even making the Big Dance if it is one and done? After all, we are only 31-35 in the Big 10 these past 4 seasons. Didn’t Dan Monson do that?
Can't dribble, dan't shoot
I admit it’s getting harder to say Tubby isn’t to blame, considering so many recent recruits have been washouts. But it’s well established that he would have taken more heat for NOT recruiting Royce White, Rodney Williams, and Devoe Joseph. Sure, two turned out to be knuckleheads (as TC Brent pointed out), and I totally agree, by the way, that Devoe should be on Gopher fans’ blacklist at this point. But is it really Tubby’s fault that the kids still rostered and healthy can’t hit an open jump shot or make a layup? I mean, the majority of middle-aged white guys playing pick-up games at the Y can hit an open jump shot 50% of the time, make their free throws, and avoid dribbling the ball off their own feet. It’s truly remarkable how many guys on this team can’t dribble and can’t shoot. I guess that leaves us with some muscle inside and a bunch of “athletes.” Tubby said his team needs to get back to fundamentals. I’m wondering whether most of these guys ever learned any fundamentals to begin with.
Journalism. Enhanced.
Fundamentals
They’ve been lacking during the Tubby era. Turnovers are high. Offense isn’t ever run crisply or consistently. Defensive lapses are commonplace. I think Tubby can win with non 5-star kids, but not if he doesn’t have them playing fundamentally sound.
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brutal game
when i watch other offenses, they are consistently moving. Ours is incredibly stagnant. So many passes and receptions are contended because we simply aren’t moving or cutting. I too have been frustrated with Rodney’s play. You can tell he is too. He just seems defeated out there. Knowing his strengths (leaping, dunking, rebounding) why does he linger on the 3pt line for 75% of our possessions? Post him up, have him crash the glass a la Mbakwe. The kid needs a confidence boost.
Lastly, while frustrating, Hollins and Armelin need to play more. Ahanmisi, sparingly. They are the only guys, besides Hoff before leading the point, who run off the ball. It is simply amazing. I know Tubby demands a lot from his players on defense, but it almost seems like everyone’s resting on offense.
Post him up
He’s not big enough for the Big 10 on the block.
Posting up rodney
I actually like that idea. Rodney can score around the basket against smaller or less athletic defenders. Most SFs in the B1G aren’t nearly as athletic as him. Get Rodney close to the basket where he can rise over smaller defenders and get, for him, a makable look.
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