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Previewing Big Ten Basketball for 2011-12...You Can't Look Ahead Too Early

Ohio State has their sights set on winning a national title, Wisconsin is trying to make a run to the Final Four and Purdue is making a run at nevermind, Purdue was VCU'd.  But for the rest of us it is time to start looking head to next year.

I do remember a couple years ago blogging about how good the Big Ten was going to be over the next couple seasons (2009-2011).  There were several sophomores dominating the All-Big Ten teams, they were all very good yet not quite good enough to leave early.  Well those guys are all seniors now and will be departing the league.  I think this offseason is going to mark a turnover in the Big Ten's landscape of power teams.  And even more likely I think the conference will take a step back in terms of overall strength.

Over the past three years Purdue, Ohio State, Wisconsin and Michigan State have dominated the conference.  This is largely due to the talent on their roster that stuck around for four years and their programs racked up a lot of wins.  As you can see below over the past four seasons those four schools have easily racked up the most wins in the conference.

2007-2011 Win Totals (4 yrs)
Tot Wins Avg Wins
Ohio State
109 27.3
Purdue 107 26.8
Michigan State 105 26.3
Wisconsin
94 25.0
Illinois 81 20.3
Minnesota 80 20.0
Penn State 72 18.0
Michigan 67 16.8
Northwestern 65 16.3
Indiana 53 13.3
Iowa 49 12.3

 

What is interesting is that you can follow that list from top to bottom and quickly name off the seniors on each of the teams all the way down to Penn State.

Well, all of that is changing.  That is a lot of talent and a lot of scoring that is leaving the top half of the conference.  Next year very well may see a significant power shift in the Big Ten.  I took a look at % of minutes lost, % of points lost and % of rebounds lost for every team in the B10 (including Nebraska).  First the numbers, then the analysis.

Players Lost % Minutes Lost % Points Lost % Rebounds Lost
Ohio State 5* 57.7 59.1 58.2
Purdue 2 34.4 53.3 37.8
Wisconsin 6 46.0 48.9 44.7
Michigan 0 -- -- --
Illinois 4 56.2 59.0 56.0
Penn State 5 66.5 77.3 66.0
Michigan State 4** 42.3 48.8 22.3
Northwestern 4 26.0 26.1 15.7
Minnesota 3*** 27.3 29.5 15.1
Iowa 2 12.6 11.9 18.0
Indiana 1 11.1 5.5 9.2
Nebraska 3 24.1 24.0 19.3

*  I assume that Jared Sullinger will be leaving for the NBA
**  numbers include Korie Lucious 18 games worth of stats
***  numbers include Devoe Joseph's 8 games worth of stats

My 2-bit analysis below the jump...

Star-divide

Teams Losing the Most

-- though some are bringing in an awful lot of talented newcomers.

  • Penn State is easily replacing the most points and rebounds. Talor Battle is just the third player in NCAA history to record 2,000 points, 600 rebounds and 500 assists.  Battle is also PSU's all-time leading scorer.  Losing just him would be bad enough but they are also losing four other seniors.  Good luck replacing all that.  Four incoming players who are not all that highly ranked will try.  SF - Ross Travis from Chaska headlines the class along with two 6-11 centers, Pat Ackerman and Peter Alexis.  Sitting here in late March, next year doesn't look so strong for the Nittany Lions.
  • Purdue only loses E'Twaun Moore and JJ Johnson who accounted for a third of minutes played but over 50% of points scored.  The award for production lost per player easily goes to the Boilermakers.  PF-Jacob Lawson is the best incoming recruit along with PF-Donnie Hale.  They'll hang their hat on some solid returners in Lewis Jackson, Ryne Smith, Kelsey Barlow, D.J. Byrd and the return of Hummell.  Matt Painter will have this team playing well but another 25 win season or top 3 finish seems highly unlikely.
  • Illinois loses their #7all-time leading scorer in Demitri McCame who is only the second player in Big Ten history to record 1,600 points and 700 assists.  He, along with four other Illini seniors will be leaving a void of 60% of the team's scoring and 55% of the team's rebounding.  Fortunately Illinois has some really good underclassmen, D.J. Richardson, Brandon Paul and Jereme Richmond, to go along with a top 15 recruiting class which includes four, 4-star kids from Chicago.  Mychael Henry, Mike Shaw, Tracy Adams and Nnanna Egwu should infuse Illinois with some talent to maintain competitiveness in the Big Ten.
  • Ohio State loses a lot of guys and some significant contributors.   Ohio State loses a few valuable seniors and a top 5 pick in the upcoming NBA Draft. Tough to replace the production of Diebler and Sullinger, maybe even tougher to replace the leadership and toughness of David Lighty and Dallas Lauderdale.  A to 5 recruiting class always helps but youthful talent is not always a supplement for experience.  They'll be interesting as always.  C-Amir Williams, PG-Shannon Scott, SF-Sam Thompson and SF-LaQuinton Ross are all top 75 overall players.
  • Wisconsin losing six guys is a bit misleading considering three of them combined to average about 8 minutes per game.  But the loss of Leuer, Nankivil and Jarmusz account for nearly half of the team's scoring.  I would think there is a slim chance that Jordan Taylor could leave early which would create some major voids for the Badgers but that doesn't seem likely. A four-man recruiting class led by a couple frontcourt players.  PF-Jarrod Uthoff and C-Frank Kaminsky are the most likely to get playing time but true freshmen aren't usually huge contributors under Bo Ryan.  Look for Mike Bruesewitz and Jared Berggren to pick up the slack inside.
  • Michigan State also loses nearly 50% of their total points for the year.  Fortunately for them they return Draymond Green.  Losing Kalin Lucas will be huge, Keith Appling is probably expected to start next year at point but Kalin was a big leader on that team and really made that engine run, his loss is hard to gauge with numbers.  Durrell Summers is no slouch either, replacing 1,300 point scorers is never easy.  Branden Dawson will headline a top 20 recruiting class for Tim Izzo.  The 5-star forward is arguably the highest rated newcomer to the Big Ten next year.  He'll come in along with a couple shooting guards in Dwaun Anderson and Brandan Kearney.  Tom Izzo will have a new-look team but they'll still be good.

Teams Returning the Most

-- this doesn't always mean that's a good thing.

  • Michigan doesn't lose anybody so they are the clear winners heading into next fall.  They may not be the conference favorites but they'll certainly be considered a top 3 or 4 team.  A few other schools don't lose much as well but they also have a lot of teams to leapfrog in the standings.  Michigan though finished the year tied for 4th in conference and they return their entire roster.  They also add a couple perimeter players that are decently ranked.  Carlton Brundidge is a 4-star shooting guard (like they need more shooters) and Trey Burke is a top 150 point guard.  This is a team on the rise, unless something shocking happens like Tim Hardaway Jr leaving early or something foolish like that.
  • Indiana has had a few nice recruiting classes that will be coming of age next year.  If Tom Crean gets his team playing better (and they stay healthy) they could very well be an NCAA Tournament team next year.  Jeremia Rivers is the only kid leaving and he'll take his 3.8 points per game with him, that can be replaced.  Returning 94.5% of your scoring is always a good thing.  Oh, and they add a 5-star PF in Cody Zeller who should be battling with MSU's Brendan Dawson for B10 freshman of the year.  Going from 11th to top three will be very difficult but this team will not be a pushover next year. 
  • Iowa returns a lot but that may not be a huge advantage.  They basically lose Jarryd Cole and return 88.1% of their scoring but outside of Melsahn Besabe there isn't much to get excited about, though Matt Gatens may disagree with me.  This team should be better but who knows by how much.  Two newcomers will be wearing Hawkeye uniforms next year.  Josh Oglesby is a shooter who Minnesota wanted as a Hoffarber replacement and PF-Aaron White are both 3-star prospects and the first recruits for Fran McCaffery.

 Somewhere in the Middle

-- you lose a little and you keep a little

  • Minnesota obviously loses 29.5% of our scoring but we also played half of the season without two of the three guys departing.  The Gophers should be interesting and so much of their 2011-12 success will depend on newcomers to the backcourt.  We actually return more rebounding (84.9%) than anybody but Michigan (100%) and Indiana (91.8%), but we led the league in rebounding so one should expect that to continue.  Losing Blake Hoffarber will be difficult, this team had only one shooter on the team and he is leaving.  Coming in are three scoring guards in Tennessee's Mr. Basketball Andre Hollins, (soon to be Minnesota's Mr. Basketball) Joe Coleman and JUCO transfer Julian Welch.  If Tubby Smith allows these guys to play and if they can mesh with the more experienced frontcourt this team could surprise.  Otherwise they'll end up a middle of the road bubble team.
  • Northwestern returns their best player in John Shurna but loses their scoring point, Michael Thompson.  Three low ranked players will be coming in and plugged into the NU system but I wouldn't count on too many of them contributing.  If Northwestern wants to finally make the NCAA Tournament it will have to come from a team that will chose to play defense this year and improvements from John Shurna, Luka Mirkovic, Drew Crawford and JerShon Cobb.  There is some talent here but as I pointed out if they don't get better defensively they'll be an NIT team again.
  • Nebraska.  Well before I wrote this I wasn't able to name one guy on Nebraska's roster (seriously not 1).  Turns out they are losing their leading scorer and then like their 7th or 8th man.  Overall they return over 75% of their scoring and minutes.  Losing your best player is always tough and how they integrate into the league will be interesting just from a style of play standpoint.  They are bringing in a trio of three-star level kids.  My gut tells me they finish in the bottom quarter of teams but let the learning curve of Husker basketball begin.

This is a completely arbitrary guess at next year's final standings.  Instead of ranking 1-12 I should put them in groupings.  Really the top 5 teams should all be considered contenders.  6-8 are possible NCAA Tournament teams.  Northwestern is an NIT team and the rest is...well...the rest.

  1. Illinois - still a few very good guards returning, Bruce Weber's system is guard friendly
  2. Ohio State - top 5 recruiting class to go with Buford
  3. Michigan - they return everyone and are executing their system well
  4. Michigan State - Tom Izzo won't have two down years in a row, great recruiting class
  5. Wisconsin - Jon Leuer is hard to replace but I should never put a Bo Ryan team outside of the top 4
  6. Minnesota - frontcourt is as good as anybody in the B10, backcourt should be able to score this year
  7. Indiana - This might be too low. Zeller + returning roster should be pretty good.
  8. Purdue - they'll play defense but SO hard to replace Moore and Johnson without stepping back a bit.
  9. Northwestern - play some defense and they'll be higher, I don't know if they can.
  10. Iowa - Year 2 of Fran McCaffery should be better, but how much better?
  11. Penn State - They lose a LOT and don't seem to have anything special coming in.
  12. Nebraska - welcome to the Big Ten Husker fans. This is as much ignorance as anything else but 7-9 in the Big 12 then losing your best player isn't encouraging.

The truth is that next year's race is wide open.  If Andre Hollins turns out to be better than advertised even Minnesota could push for the top spot.  Indiana could start clicking and beat anybody.  Nobody is a clear-cut favorite and on paper (before this season is even over) none of them look like a #1 seed in next year's tourney.

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Hummel

So is Hummel not coming back for Purdue next year? I thought he had gotten some sort of waiver allowing him another year.

by MinnMarchDTF on Mar 22, 2011 11:14 AM CDT reply actions  

Hummel was 2007 HS Class

He redshirted this year. He needs no waiver to play next year. He’s only played 3 seasons.

by FortyYearCatFan on Mar 22, 2011 11:28 AM CDT up reply actions  

that's my bad

I don’t recall ever hearing that but I guess I should have known.

what you say here can, and will, be used against you The Daily Gopher

by GopherNation on Mar 22, 2011 11:29 AM CDT up reply actions  

Hummel will return

2010-11 was a full redshirt for him, so I think he can pick up half of what we lose with Moore and Johnson gone. There are some nice pieces that could develop too. I think Purdue will benefit greatly from Hummel’s leadership and the necessity to achieve more offensive balance.

A futile crusade to prevent mass ignorance

HammerAndRails, SBNation's Boilermaker Blog

by BoilerTMill on Mar 25, 2011 7:46 AM CDT up reply actions  

Minnesota

Look for Welch, Coleman, and (Andre) to get at least 70 (of 80) minutes at guard spots next year.

by FortyYearCatFan on Mar 22, 2011 11:29 AM CDT reply actions  

if they earn it

but if they come in as prepared to play in the Big Ten as say Rodney Williams was as a true freshman then God help us if they are playing that many minutes.

what you say here can, and will, be used against you The Daily Gopher

by GopherNation on Mar 22, 2011 11:30 AM CDT up reply actions  

As Politely As I Can Say It

That’s “inacuurate” to compare them to Rodney Williams.

Welch did more as frosh (at UC Davis) than RW. And both Hollins and Coleman have already shown more talent and better accomplishments than RW in HS careers.

by FortyYearCatFan on Mar 22, 2011 12:28 PM CDT up reply actions  

we know about as much about these guys as we did about Rodney

RW was a top 50 player out of high school. He was dubbed B10 ready defensively and was going to be able to be that athletic forward capable of getting to the rim from day 1. Neither were accurate. This from one of his ESPN evals…

Williams is a very talented athlete and a prolific points producer. He has an impressive variety of shake-and-bake moves off the dribble, including an amazingly effective reverse dribble maneuver in the paint. He is a deadly 3-point marksman but needs to develop a more consistent medium-range jumper. Williams is a good rebounder from his wing position and plays excellent man defense

We don’t know nearly enough about Hollins or Coleman. Welch gives us something to work with and think he’ll start from day 1, but the other two are as much of a mystery. I believe they’ll be good and see a lot of minutes but I’m not going to make assumptions like I did two years ago. All I said in my comment was they have to earn it. We’ve seen nothing that says there is any guarantee.

what you say here can, and will, be used against you The Daily Gopher

by GopherNation on Mar 22, 2011 12:43 PM CDT up reply actions  

Neither Hollins Nor Coleman Is A Mystery To Me

Hollins have been a 4-time State of TN semi-finalist (FF if you prefer) playing with and against multiple Div I prospects over those 4 years.

Coleman is a probable 3-time State of MN champion (HS) playing for Hopkins HS (the BOTB in MN HS basketball).

Rodney Williams was less well known (and accomplished) than either player coming out of HS – at least IMO anyway.

by FortyYearCatFan on Mar 22, 2011 1:43 PM CDT up reply actions  

revisionist history

Rodney was very well known coming out of high school and very accomplished.

I do believe that Joe and Andre will be two very good ball players, and both will probably be better than Rodney. But translating a high school player to major college is not always so easy to project. I’m not nearly as confident as you are.

what you say here can, and will, be used against you The Daily Gopher

by GopherNation on Mar 22, 2011 2:10 PM CDT up reply actions  

Well Known, Yes > Accomplished, Not So Much

But Hollins and Coleman are more accomplished at the same point.

I’m very confident that both will be excellent Gophers as frosh and beyond.

by FortyYearCatFan on Mar 22, 2011 4:10 PM CDT up reply actions  

Thoughts

Nice write up… I think Purdue and Minnesota are too low… You can make the argument the same for Purdue as you did for Wisconsin (don’t ever underestimate them due to coaching). That said, I think next year is the one year Wisconsin could be down slightly due to the roster changes, especially if Taylor left.

I know there are several wildcards for the Gophers, especially back court, but if anyone can get the ball to the front court, and then score a bit to take the double teams off inside, I see them as a 3rd-5th place team. And that is true even if Mbakwe leaves, although it does make them weaker inside. Their inside depth could overcome one loss, but not the mass defection the PG position had this last year.

If next year is a weaker conference year, 5-6 teams are the most that will get in to the NCAA tourney from the Big10, so the Gophers will need to take advantage of said down year. If they can’t make it next year, when will they?

by mraveling on Mar 22, 2011 11:32 AM CDT reply actions  

W Total Off For Purdue

Boilers have 25 – 27 – 29 – 26 W the past 4 seasons for 107 total W (2008 thru 2011 seasons). Average ~ 27 W.

by FortyYearCatFan on Mar 22, 2011 12:25 PM CDT reply actions  

shoot

I used ESPN’s Big Ten standings, I don’t think they include NCAA Tournament games. I’ll re-evaluate, but the idea is still there. Purdue has a lot of wins over the last four years (whether it is 25 per year or 27).

what you say here can, and will, be used against you The Daily Gopher

by GopherNation on Mar 22, 2011 12:45 PM CDT up reply actions  

Wide open

Wide open race, huh? THIS year was supposed to be wide open too. Remember all those teams ranked in the top 15 in the country (Michigan State, Purdue, Illinois, Ohio State). How did that turn out?

There is zero chance Illinois wins the B1G next season. Despite the continual hype, they are a team very similar to the Gophers since Tubby arrived. Count on ’em to be good, but not great. They lose three senior LEADERS (not Legends) and unless they have a Sullinger coming in, they will be a fringe top 25 team yet again.

I think the rest of those top 5 teams are about right, however. Michigan State, Ohio State, Michigan, and probably Wisconsin should all be very good (but again, probably not top 10 in the country). Totally unrealistic for Minnesota fans to expect two true freshman and a JUCO transfer to come in and turn the program around. They will end up in job shares with Austin Hollins and Chip Armelin. If you ask me, THOSE guys (Au. Hollins, Armelin) are more likely to take big steps and be difference makers next year. But I don’t think that’s particularly likely either. Tubby will have himself another bubble team, and that’s only if Mbakwe doesn’t bolt for the NBA. Sigh.

Remember when the arrow was pointing up with this team?

Journalism. Enhanced.

by MNdailyGuy on Mar 22, 2011 12:36 PM CDT reply actions  

well...

Purdue was in the race and would have challenged OSU with Hummell. Michigan State fell off the map and lost a very good player in Lucious (lost meaning they lost his willingness to be a part of what was going on with the team).

I do think Minnesota will be better next year. We basically lose Hoffarber and we bring in three guys who should be better than our current group of guards (particularly Armelin and Ahanmisi). Oto should be a good shooter and as I mentioned above, we might have the best frontcourt in the Big Ten. I never said the new guys would “turn the program around” but I think we’ll be better than what we saw the last 15 games of the year.

what you say here can, and will, be used against you The Daily Gopher

by GopherNation on Mar 22, 2011 12:51 PM CDT up reply actions  

Um

“If Andre Hollins turns out to be better than advertised even Minnesota could push for the top spot.”

The top spot in the Big Ten? Um, yes, that would qualify as major turning point for this program. Tain’t gonna happen. And even if it did, I promise it would require an even bigger year from Mbakwe, a breakout campaign for Sampson/Iverson (anybody expect that to happen?), and/or a huge bump in production from Au. Hollins, Armelin, or Mo Walker. Trust me, I want these newcomers to be good. And all of ‘em might be, eventually. But they will not be the reason for a turnaround if this team somehow finishes in the B1G’s top three.

By the way, St Thomas could (and did) field a roster that is “better than what we saw for the last 15 games of the year.” That embarassment of a team is not the benchmark we will measure our squad by.

Journalism. Enhanced.

by MNdailyGuy on Mar 22, 2011 1:00 PM CDT up reply actions  

I said "IF"

but I actually projected them to be around 7th in Big Ten. My point was that that conference is really wide open and if things fall into place for certain teams there are a number of teams capable of finishing at or near the top.

what you say here can, and will, be used against you The Daily Gopher

by GopherNation on Mar 22, 2011 1:04 PM CDT up reply actions  

sorry, 6th not 7th

what you say here can, and will, be used against you The Daily Gopher

by GopherNation on Mar 22, 2011 1:05 PM CDT up reply actions  

I agree with GN and might go a little further...

Its so open next year. Ohio State will not be the same. They will have good recruits but their class isn’t near the quality of last years. If Sullinger stays then they will definitely be front runners. However, that doesn’t really seem likely and I think they’ll take a definite step back. Losing Deibler and Lighty is so much more damaging than people realize. Although Craft is unreal on the defensive end.

Michigan State will not be the same. Though I would say they still make the tournament and have a strong season. They won’t be in anyone’s preseason top twenty probably.

Wisconsin will be the same. They will finish top 4 in the conference guarenteed.
Maybe not as successful in the tournament as the current squad but somehow, someway Bo Ryan finds a way to finish near the top of the Big Ten every year (to my extreme disappointment).

Illinois will be a bust in my opinion. Bust meaning people (like Doug Gottleib who, before this season started, had them “in the national championship game”) will hype them up again as sleepers to have a really good season and they will have a mediocre one. I have no faith in Weber. I know I"m in the minority here.

Michigan will be good. Yes they are returning everyone. They should be competitive in every game. But I see them as vulnerable in every game as well because they rely so heavily on the three pointer. One away game when they’re not dropping and you could have a problem.

Purdue will definitely challenge for a top three spot. They still have talent and the way they play defense (minus Sunday) will keep them extremely competitive.

As mentioned, Indiana is going to be on the rise. It just depends if they can really assert themselves as a solid team in conference or not. And they really have to get back to the mentality of not storming the court when beating teams ranked 20-25.

As for us compared to these teams, I honestly think we can beat any of them next year in any given game. Obviously, this is all heavy speculation but if we use this past year as an indicator, its not too much of a stretch. When we have a functional point guard (hopefully, some one fills this role) and if we can get two guards (or Oto) to shoot around 35% from behind the arc to open up the middle for our massive front line, we will be able to hang with anyone. I think people forget how smart Mo Walker looked on the floor, especially as a freshman at the beginning of the season. He was an extremely intelligent passer with some decent feet and hands. Him, plus Mbakwe, and even mediocre Sampson and Iverson, will be a handful for any front line in the Big Ten.

I’m not saying we’ll finish top 4 but at this point in speculation, its not a stupid thing to say its possible. We beat Purdue at home with a fully functional team this year. We lost @ #1 Ohio State by three with a fully functional this year. We came within one missed offensive rebound of tying Wisconsin at the Kohl Center with a fully functional team this year. When we don’t have the basketball gods cursing us, we’ve competed against the top teams in the conference. So I don’t see why that would stop, especially with all the great players leaving other teams (we are losing good, not great, players imo). I’ll take our chances when we don’t have to defend the likes of Battle, Moore, Johnson, Diebler, Sullinger, Lighty, or Leuer anymore.

by tubbytime20 on Mar 22, 2011 2:12 PM CDT reply actions  

Side note

What are they going to do with the names for the two Hollins’. Au. Hollins and An. Hollins on the back of the jerseys? When was the last time a team had to deal with such an occurence. I find it very unusual, at least for college basketball when rosters aren’t that big as compared to NFL or MLB.

Another note: If that’s the way they do it, should we call Austin the “Golden” Hollins? AU….

by tubbytime20 on Mar 22, 2011 2:15 PM CDT up reply actions  

Uh, Kansas' Morris twins?

That is sooooo not funny - Maize N Brew Dave

by jeepnut on Mar 23, 2011 8:30 AM CDT up reply actions  

Mk And Mc On Their Jerseys (I Think)

Tubby recruited both at UK in 2007 and was among their finalists but KU won out.

by FortyYearCatFan on Mar 23, 2011 9:04 AM CDT up reply actions  

Nice, informative post

A couple of notes on Michigan: Carlton Brundidge is a shooting guard but not a shooter. He likes to drive and score at the rim, and his outside game needs some work. think of a stockier, slower, freshman Kemba Walker (not Junior Kemba), and you get Brundidge. Burke is a shooter though. He’s coached by Satch Sullinger and is supposedly Jared’s best friend. he’s a lethal shooter, and he’ll presumptively be the backup point guard. Michigan’s offense isn’t really as reliant on the three-ball as people think. Sure, a horrible night will mean a loss, but that’s the same for everyone. Michigan’s high 2pt % is masked by the high percentage of threes shot, so Michigan looks inside when the shots aren’t falling, and they do it well.

by Alex Cook on Mar 22, 2011 3:53 PM CDT reply actions  

thanks

so hard to keep up with 10/11 other teams and their incoming recruits that fall outside of the top 50.

what you say here can, and will, be used against you The Daily Gopher

by GopherNation on Mar 22, 2011 4:46 PM CDT up reply actions  

no problem

thanks for compiling the original post so I could reaffirm my unabashed optimism for next year get a perspective on what the 10/11 teams I don’t know very well are looking for next season.

by Alex Cook on Mar 22, 2011 6:43 PM CDT up reply actions  

One Way To Look At 2012 Gophers Is This

They were 16-4 (ranked Top 15) with Nolen healthy, Joseph available (for most of that time), and Walker around for part of it. Of course, Hoffarber graduates.

Walker is back. They’ll need to replace Nolen (Welch), Hoffarber (Hollins), and Joseph (Coleman) to POSSIBLY have a similar record (projected to 24 W over 30 games).

by FortyYearCatFan on Mar 22, 2011 4:14 PM CDT reply actions  

plus

Oto as a shooter, Elliason who may displace Iverson and with Welch/Coleman playing you don’t have to play Mav or Chip nearly as many minutes.

what you say here can, and will, be used against you The Daily Gopher

by GopherNation on Mar 22, 2011 4:44 PM CDT up reply actions  

The biggest question mark in my mind

is the coaching staff. I ended the season with a very bad feeling about them. We have the horses but I have serious doubts about Tubby and staff.

by Texas Gopher on Mar 22, 2011 7:43 PM CDT reply actions  

Fair Question

Not only did the team “give up” toward the end of the season but the coaches appeared to do so also.

by FortyYearCatFan on Mar 23, 2011 5:25 AM CDT up reply actions  

40 years

Personally, I am giving Tubby one more year. It would not make sense to make a move now. But that is it—-no more excuses from anyone or free passes. Results, marked signs of improvement and the feeling the program is on the upswing. 5years is plenty of time to establish whether we have a keeper or not.

by Texas Gopher on Mar 23, 2011 7:32 AM CDT reply actions  

Absolutely Correct

What you see is what you get by the 5th year.

Look at Mick Cronin in Cincy for example. Not the same situation but 11 W – 13 W – 16 W – 19 W and then 26 W this year. He kept getting better every year.

Minnesota was good in 2008 (20 W) and 2009 (22 W) with limited talent. But not as good in 2010 (should have been 25 W) and 2011 (ditto 25 W) although there were reasons for both.

by FortyYearCatFan on Mar 23, 2011 9:03 AM CDT up reply actions  

No doubt

It’s black and white in my mind, as well. And to add one thing to that… even if another unforseen event like a transfer, arrest, or academic-related suspension happens and costs this team wins, that is no longer an excuse because by Year 5, all the guys on the roster are guys that the current coaching staff recruited, filtered, and wanted there. We had this debate too many times this year and last year. By next season, the only possible excuse to not being a SOLID (not a fringe) NCAA tournament team is a significant injury to multiple key contributors.

Journalism. Enhanced.

by MNdailyGuy on Mar 23, 2011 12:38 PM CDT up reply actions  

so let's just say

that we have another mediocre year and either just miss or just make the NCAA Tournament (losing our first game as a 10 seed). Then what?

what you say here can, and will, be used against you The Daily Gopher

by GopherNation on Mar 23, 2011 2:05 PM CDT up reply actions  

Then...

…I make up my mind that Tubby Smith was not as good of a coach as advertised. I do not really want to make a change if said scenario plays out, but it will change my position from someone who believes Tubby is the answer, to someone who believes he is a decent coach who is probably overpaid at $2 million per year.

Journalism. Enhanced.

by MNdailyGuy on Mar 23, 2011 4:57 PM CDT up reply actions  

You bite the bullet

take a financial hit, give Tubby his walking papers, and try again. There are too many good, young, energetic, and motivated coaches out there. GN, you cannot be content with the status of the Men’s BB program, can you??

by Texas Gopher on Mar 23, 2011 2:54 PM CDT reply actions  

I am as frustrated as anyone

but unless you are going to land Roy Williams, Tom Izzo, Coach K or John Wooden I’m not sure you get any better. I firmly believe that the state of the program is not nearly as bad as some are making it out to be. We are not at the bottom of the league by any stretch and hiring a new coach only increases your chances of getting worse.

So the question to you would be who would you want to hire that would take the program to the next level?

I think there are two things at play here. The first is that people quickly forget how bad we were for nearly 10 years before Tubby arrived. Secondly, people are remembering the Clem years with dramatic revisionist history. Clem was never a national contender, rarely challenged for a Big Ten title (never did either when he wasn’t found to be cheating) and consistently finished right around .500 in the Big Ten. Yet people long for the Clem days where we were “contending for Big Ten Titles.” Didn’t happen.

This year’s roster was set to be very good and it worked out that way for 2/3 of the year. Then shit happened. You can call it a free pass, I call it fact. No coach in the country, at any level, is going to win with Ahanmisi starting and Hollins/Armelin as your only perimeter options off the bench. With Tubby we very nearly won a few more games (Mich, MSU, @Ind, @PSU). Without Tubby I believe it could have been worse.

what you say here can, and will, be used against you The Daily Gopher

by GopherNation on Mar 23, 2011 3:53 PM CDT up reply actions  

hiring a new coach

you stand a better chance of getting a Dan Monson than you do Thad Matta. And we don’t have the resources to give the next “Matta” that OSU was able to give the actual Matta.

what you say here can, and will, be used against you The Daily Gopher

by GopherNation on Mar 23, 2011 3:55 PM CDT up reply actions  

Guess the coach

In their first 7 years of coaching for the Gophers which coach had a better win% in the Big Ten?

Dan Monson (only coached for 7 years) or Clem Haskins (only first 7 years count before he cheated)?

Answer is Dan Monson at .393, Clem managed .381. Monson also had more winning Big Ten seasons than Clem. I’m surprised that Clem wasn’t fired.

what you say here can, and will, be used against you The Daily Gopher

by GopherNation on Mar 23, 2011 4:19 PM CDT reply actions  

GN

I am not going to present a whole litany of evidence agst. Tubby. I am going to support him for one more year and if the program has not shown improvement, I will strongly support a changing of the guard.

by Texas Gopher on Mar 23, 2011 4:32 PM CDT reply actions  

fair enough

though I’m not sure there is enough evidence to support a change, IMO.

what you say here can, and will, be used against you The Daily Gopher

by GopherNation on Mar 23, 2011 5:13 PM CDT up reply actions  

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