Golden Nugz 02.13.12
by GopherNation on Feb 13, 2012 10:39 AM CST
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PrintGopher Hockey did not get a point this weekend in Denver. It was their first sweep as the sweepee of the season. SB Minnesota's Nathan Wells recaps Saturday's game a bit of the weekend in general.
Like last night, Denver outplayed the Gophers at what they do best. Minnesota has been dominant on both Saturdays and the third period throughout the season and they were neither against the Pioneers. Whether or not it's just head coach George Gwozdecky having Don Lucia's number - he is now 13-2-1 in the last 16 games between the two teams - they deserve bit of credit. Denver is finally getting healthy for the first season and looks to be going in the right direction after struggling last weekend against Colorado College. That might be the silver lining for Minnesota because after getting swept this weekend, it is more than possible to come back from adversity and do something about being swept for the first time all season.
They just actually need to do something about it.
Only a few weekends left and a 1 point lead in the standings for the Gophers.
- Rochester Post Bulletin's Faceoff discusses Gopher hoops a bit. I kind of disagree with most of this statement.
Sampson had the look when he arrived on campus, and he's regressed under Tubby. Other players transferred, and it seems like the ones who stuck around have all taken steps in the wrong direction.
I don't think it is true to say that everyone have taken steps backwards. Rodney has been better this season, Chip Armelin is better, Austin Hollins has nearly doubled his point average, even Mav has improved his production and the two true freshmen have improved throughout the season. Nobody has stepped up to really dominate or lead this team and Ralph has been a huge disappointment; but to say that all others are going the wrong direction is false. - Fox Sports North's Joan Niesen profiles Kent Patterson and his drive to win.
- Minnesota's Mr. Hockey finalists were announced last week.
- The Milwaukee Journal Sentinel's Michael Hunt wonders what direction Gopher athletics will go with the new AD.
- One Mann's take over at FBT takes a look at projecting the Gopher starting secondary. Corner should be less of a question mark but who starts and plays at safety is a huge mystery. My gut tells me that one of the incoming JUCOs will start at safety but who knows. The spring game should be interesting.
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Sampson is better than he was as a freshman
It’s frustrating how little progress Sampson has made on the weak parts of his game but the strong parts of his game have improved.
I think it is a common refrain on this program...
because Ralph exemplifies the frustration with the shape of the program. We may have expected too much from Ralph, just like we may have expected too much from Tubby thinking that this would be a quicker fix. Both Ralph and the program in general have shown the promise of being good, but only in fits and starts. Its too bad because i think Ralph gets picked on, i’m just as guilty as any, but i think he has become a better basketball player in the 4 years. The one thing that hasn’t improved, his toughness, is so glaring that it distracts from the things he does well, block, pass, shot, generally makes good descisions.
his production has not improved
he may be a better basketball player who can make better decisions and shoot better than he did as a freshman. But his production from his sophomore year is worse.
what you say here can, and will, be used against you The Daily Gopher
by GopherNation on Feb 13, 2012 1:49 PM CST up reply actions
The one thing that hasn’t improved, his toughness
This is the BIG. What else is there for a postman other than toughness?
The only thing the previous three Timberwolves coaches did not improve on was winning. Everything else they made great strides (finding short cuts home, identifying great bars and restaurants, remembering their secretaries birthdays etc.)
Yeah, that RPB is just wrong
Ralph has disappointed, but not because he’s regressed. He is a much better player than he was as a freshman. He just hasn’t improved into the monster we all projected him to be.
Or hat DJL44 said.
And as GN said, Chip, Austin and Mav (and Elliott if you got the chance to see him last year) have all shown significant improvement from last year. Elliott’s shown excellent in-season improvement, as Dre seems to be starting to do too.
But Rodney’s in similar territory to Ralph. He’s definitely improved, just not as much as we would have hoped. He’s having a good year by moving inside where he can emphasize his strengths, but his weakness shooting the ball hasn’t improved much.
Guh. That was some deeply frustrating hockey.
At least UMD lost a game as well. Still up one point in the WCHA.
Being a Wild and Gopher Fan
that hit by Rau was extra tough to swallow.
When we get the Pig, the Jug and the Axe, we'll have one hell of a picnic
I don't even care about hockey
and was still pissed off by what I saw on Twitter feeds this weekend. The Gophers find new ways all the time to shit on me.
what did you see on Twitter?
what you say here can, and will, be used against you The Daily Gopher
by GopherNation on Feb 13, 2012 2:10 PM CST up reply actions
The basics...
…Gophers winning, just need to make it this last minute. Then followed up by “goal, we are tied”. Followed up by “Goal, we lost”.
In various flavors…ha ha ha…
I have to admit
I missed the boat on Justin Cobbs. As a soph, he is playing 30 minutes, few TO’s, 13 PPG, and the one stat that hurts the most 4.6 assists per game. Playing at Cal—-30 minutes/26 games for a team that is having a good year.
Jpig
to remind myself I can be wrong because right now I have us going 1-5 the last six games of this season.
by Texas Gopher on Feb 13, 2012 4:58 PM CST up reply actions
Which one?
I just can’t see us losing to Northwestern after the way we dismantled them. Nor can I see Nebraska beating us at Williams, although I will admit the game in Lincoln was much too close for comfort.
Also, I’m not going tomorrow, which means we will probably pull off an historic upset and I will miss it.
Neb.
is the only game I feel confident winning. A 3-3 finish will be impressive.
by Texas Gopher on Feb 13, 2012 5:40 PM CST up reply actions
I'm not very confident about northwestern either
Last time we had a full week to prepare for them and they had a fairly quick turnaround.
what you say here can, and will, be used against you The Daily Gopher
by GopherNation on Feb 14, 2012 9:53 AM CST up reply actions
Their roster just doesn't scare me
There best player is a soft big man who prefers to shoot jump shots (with one of the ugliest forms I’ve seen in college basketball, even though it’s effective). That’s something we can handle.
Did Iowa's?
It didn’t really scare me…but they slapped us around for 80 minutes this season.
i think you're right about 1-5.
Then maybe we can stop talking about NCAA….but I guess we must be mathematically eliminated before people will do that. Which is fine…gotta dream I guess. Nothing else to do in the winter. But we’re fucking toast. It’ll be a season we look back on and remember the close losses. “What could have been”.
I gotta say…Coleman disappearing has been really disappointing. He provided the brief spark of the season, and it was gone before we had time to enjoy it. Gotta get that kid to regroup in the offseason and working on some things. Rounding off his game.
I don't understand
The fear of Northwestern. What’s that all about?
the last time we swept them was the 07-08 season!
And every year we are convinced that we are athletically superior and this is a good match-up for us.
I fear that they go into the 1-3-1, we cannot get shots off, we turn the ball over and then we get killed by their offense. We played well enough to win last time but they’ll make adjustments and I guarantee they won’t shoot 33% again.
what you say here can, and will, be used against you The Daily Gopher
by GopherNation on Feb 14, 2012 11:20 AM CST up reply actions
He is a freshman
Remember what I said at the beginning of the season when you accused me of “pissing in your Cheerios” in regards to freshman? :)
Freshman are inconsistent and you shouldn’t depend on them. They will get better—some more than others. I just feel like we have some solid guys, but not any breakthrough talent. Damn Royce White’s bad influences.
I wasn't trying to be hard on him...
…just stating that’s my biggest source of disappointment after we put together a nice little run (against the weaker teams, I acknowledge). Thought he was ready to break out. He needs to regroup and work on some things.
I’ve seen some mind-numbingly bad losses to NW, mostly at NW where I can hear the shoes squeeking…and feel like the coach is going to point at me and tell me to get in the game. Then I can never figure out why or how they just beat us. I feel that’s coming up again. Even if we did kill them last time around.
I had this team at 25 wins pre-season didn't I?
It was nearly impossible not to piss all over my cheerios…from every angle. My assumptions were pretty much taking the best game all our guys have played and spread that out across the season….without Mbakwe’s injury.
It was silly at best. Swiss cheese of a theory…
Horrible Minnesota sports weekend
Gophers hockey gets swept, I still have a hangover from the disappointing basketball loss to Wisconsin, Timberwolves lost on Friday and Saturday, Wild lost to Columbus to go 5-20 over their last 25 games.
To make matters worse, I’m not even optimistic about the Twins starting spring training.
You guys are all forgetting ....
The three Tubby Smith recruits who have improved the most this year:
Royce White, best player (leading scorer, rebounder, and assists) on a good Iowa State team;
Devoe Joseph, leading scorer on a good Oregon team.
Justin Cobbs, 13 points and 4.6 assists a game as the point guard for the PAC 12 leader, Cal.
And you are forgetting
That none of them play for the Gophers anymore, through no fault of Smith’s.
"Our attitude is we look at ourselves and we grade ourselves. And even if we don’t like what’s happening on the other side, we don’t make a — it’s not our business" - Tony Larussa
At least 2 of 3
Are Tubby’s fault. I can give him a pass on White, but he still has some responsibility in managing a troubled kid—that is part of a college coach’s job duties.
I don't see how
Jospeh screwed up. So dd White. And Cobbs was correctly at the bottom of the depth chart.
I can’t blame Tubby for any of that.
Oh, I remember every day they don't play for the Gophers
And they were all run off by Tubby.
You can keep saying it
‘Cause it’s a free country, but it just ain’t true.
Joseph is gone because of his own conduct. White is gone because of his own conduct and our prudish soon-to-be-former AD. Cobbs is gone because he was, rightly, on the bottom of the depth chart.
by amiller92 on Feb 13, 2012 4:22 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
No
Tubby has responsibility in managing kids. That is part of his job. I haven’t heard what things Devoe did other than not get along with Tubby. I don’t think he was ever actually in any trouble; just trouble with Tubby.
I don’t think Cobbs ever got a fair shake here. Most freshman are on the bottom of the depth chart and don’t transfer—again I blame Tubby for that one.
The rumor I heard
From a person who was frmerly closely tied to the program, but may very well be wrong, is that his issues was marijuana. I have no idea if that is right. It may well be wrong.
Anyway, he was in trouble. His first suspension wasn’t about not getting along. He did something. His second suspension would have been for something.
As for Cobbs., look back at the stats. He played more than I remembered but his impact was what I thought. He did very little, in a system where Tubby plays everyone.
You heard a rumor but have no idea if it's true?
Then why spread it around? You’re talking about a college kid who has no ability to respond or defend his reputation.
Joseph left because he and Tubby didn’t get along. Tubby could not stand Devoe because a) he advised his younger brother not to come to Minnesota because of Tubby’s style of play and b) because Devoe had an “attitude”. Can you imagine the horror? A winner with an attitude? No, that will never do when there are people like Ralph around to play for the Gophers.
Cobbs did not say why he left. He was last on the depth chart the day he arrived at Cal too, so that might not have been the reason. So what, then, they didn’t sell his favorite ice cream in Dinkytown? He found asbestos in his living quarters? What could it be? No way it was just chafing under Tubby’s style of stand around FSO, was it?
Royce White could have been saved if Tubby had cared to try. Even Iverson could have helped the team this year but, once again, he was not passive enough to suit Tubby. Probably another attitude case.
So...
Joseph left because he and Tubby didn’t get along. Tubby could not stand Devoe because a) he advised his younger brother not to come to Minnesota because of Tubby’s style of play and b) because Devoe had an "attitude". Can you imagine the horror? A winner with an attitude? No, that will never do when there are people like Ralph around to play for the Gophers.
Without links, your statements here hold as much weight as what amiller has also said. And in his defense, he’s taken care never to specify the allegation (he’s alluded to it many times but never specified) until this most recent post. FWIW, he’s not the only one hearing this. There was a lot of “smoke” (pun not intended) around the issue when Joseph left.
Royce White could have been saved if Tubby had cared to try. Even Iverson could have helped the team this year but, once again, he was not passive enough to suit Tubby. Probably another attitude case.
More stuff you’ll need to substantiate if you want to call out amiller for rumor mongering.
Go, that's hilarious
So now opinion, based on months and years of observation and noted trends, is the same and no better than a rumor? LOL!! And right, am never actually specified the rumor until he actually specified the rumor. I understand completely.
But you are just sooooooo correct. I should have posted “a link” to prove my statement that Devoe and Tubby didn’t care for each other. I need “a link” to show Cobbs didn’t care for the offense. And surely I should have “a link” to prove Iverson might have helped the team. Just like the other guy’s “link” proving his scurrilous rumor of criminal conduct by a college kid. Hilarious.
I think GoAU is right
You can’t call out someone for posting a rumor and then post your opinions as fact. Neither are substantiated or anything more than hearsay and guessing.
Devoe advising his younger brother not to come to MN is not something that can be “based on months and years of observations.” It is a guess. Maybe Corey Joseph just wanted to play for Texas with his buddy from prep school. We don’t know that DJ said to him “don’t come here.” And you deciding that Tubby could not stand Devoe because Devoe was a winner is a total guess.
Opinions are great and welcome here not matter how far they go. But the pot cannot then call the kettle black.
what you say here can, and will, be used against you The Daily Gopher
by GopherNation on Feb 14, 2012 10:01 AM CST up reply actions
You're surprised
That a player who was about to get suspended for the second time in a season says after the fact that he didn’t get along with the coach? What else would he say, “coach is great but I just screwed up?” I think you’re expecting a little too much.
As for Cobbs, as to my knowledge he said nothing (which of course is also what you said above), so yeah, you can assume what you want. But to insist that your assumption is fact without something to back it up is kind of strange.
But what is a fact for Cobbs is that he had Blake, Al and Devoe ahead of him on the depth chart for the coming year. Three guys who were going to get at least 25 minutes, leaving him little opportunity to play. I think I’ll go with those facts instead of your assumptions about how he may have felt about Tubby and his system — a system that he most definitely learned about before committing to come here in the first place.
I don't know this and it is clearly an opinion
but I think for Cobbs, moving to Minnesota from Cali was a bigger deal than he anticipated. Part of his transfer was for playing time (which is too bad that he was so short-sighted on that one) and part really was moving back home. This is one guy that Tubby should have fought for, or not released him from his scholarship.
what you say here can, and will, be used against you The Daily Gopher
by GopherNation on Feb 14, 2012 11:22 AM CST up reply actions
I would agree with that
It’s always important to keep depth around at PG, but I also think what amiller said is important too. You can’t expect a 19 year old to look at 3 players above him on the depth chart and think “oh, well maybe I’ll start in two years.” And if he got it into his head that he’d have a better chance of starting elsewhere, I don’t think there was much Smith could have said to convince him.
"Our attitude is we look at ourselves and we grade ourselves. And even if we don’t like what’s happening on the other side, we don’t make a — it’s not our business" - Tony Larussa
GN already covered this...
…but I’m going to revisit it to make clear what my point was. Opinion and rumor without facts to back them are equally unsubstantiated. That was my point. If you want to say “hey, this is my opinion and here’s my case for it” that’s all good. If you list good, logical reasons then you’ll probably convince quite a few folks. But to pretend you KNOW what happened is bogus without proof. Sorry, it is.
I've heard the same rumor
pot is supposedly why he kept getting suspended and Devoe decided to leave. I don’t fault Tubby for DJ, but I think he could have done more to keep Cobbs around. He was a solid point and we desperately could have used him last year and this.
what you say here can, and will, be used against you The Daily Gopher
by GopherNation on Feb 14, 2012 9:55 AM CST up reply actions
Point is we don't know what rule he broke
Believe me, no college coach wants to suspend a valuable player, so it doesn’t make sense to assume Smith went out of his way to persecute Joseph, he must have legitimately done something to hurt the team.
And your last paragraph makes no sense. “Most freshman are on the bottom of the depth chart and don’t transfer.” Exactly, why did Cobbs think he was entitled to start? That’s precisely the reason you shouldn’t blame Smith.
"Our attitude is we look at ourselves and we grade ourselves. And even if we don’t like what’s happening on the other side, we don’t make a — it’s not our business" - Tony Larussa
You're all missing the point
…Devoe didn’t get in trouble with the law (if the marijuana rumor is true, he never got into any legal trouble over it) or academics. He didn’t do anything that other college students do (and even professional athletes do). I understand he is on scholarship and is held to a higher standard, but these are the types of things EVERY college coach endures and coaches his kids through. Coaching in college isn’t just about basketball. You are dealing with kids in transition and Tubby has seemingly run off a lot of kids in his time here.
Yeah, Cobbs was down on the depth chart, where most freshman would be. Not all freshman transfer.
Iverson leaving before his senior season is another big indictment on Tubby no matter what you think of his play. He would have contributed this year regardless of Mbakwe going down. Yet, he chose to leave.
Is Tubby 100% at fault for these guys leaving? Of course not. But if guys loved (or respected) playing for him we wouldn’t have so many transfers. This has become a pattern in this program under Tubby and he is squarely to blame—especially when we see those same guys have success elsewhere.
I think the stat is
something like 10% of players transfer overall, and it’s going up. To quote Izzo, “Kids want to star and start immediately.”
I don’t think it’s an indictment of the coach when guys like Iverson and Cobbs leave because they want to play more. Well, it could be if you believe that the coach had them in the wrong spot on the depth chart, but for those two guys I don’t think he did.
3 guys in 5 years is not a pattern
"Our attitude is we look at ourselves and we grade ourselves. And even if we don’t like what’s happening on the other side, we don’t make a — it’s not our business" - Tony Larussa
"This has become a pattern in this program under Tubby .. "
Rencito has wrapped it up very nicely, I think, despite all protestations to the contrary that only rumor can be regarded as fact and strongly-held opinions cannot.
"It's a pattern for all of college basketball"
Really? Could you cite all the coaches who currently have three former players starting for and leading teams with better records and conference standings than the teams they left? I’d be very interested to see the list.
Mbakwe was a transfer
Welch was another. If you’re counting transfers out against Tubby he should get credit for the transfers in.
Oh and
No one is saying that rumor is fact.
But it is a fact that he was suspended once and was about to be suspended again. We don’t know what he did, because the coaches don’t share that kind of information, but he did something that violated team rules. Your strongly-held opinion doesn’t seem to account for that.
What he did is inconsequential
We do know this:
1) There were no legal troubles
2) There were no academic issues
3) He basically left in the middle of the night (i.e. Baltimore Colts)
4) His mom emailed someone at the Strib rather than this news coming through the U or Tubby
5) He chose to lose a year of eligibility (half of last year and half of this year) rather than a few games and continue playing for Tubby
My opinion is that these signs point to Joseph choosing to leave because he was unhappy playing for Tubby.
So if he's smoking dope or drinking and missing practice, coaches should ignore that?
Again, not saying that happened, but there are plenty of things he could have been doing that would not involve the police, but would still bring the team down. Neither of us know what he did, but it’s just unreasonable to assume Smith suspended him for no reason. That would be in no one’s best interests.
"Our attitude is we look at ourselves and we grade ourselves. And even if we don’t like what’s happening on the other side, we don’t make a — it’s not our business" - Tony Larussa
If he's doing whatever it was
I really don’t know what rencito would have Tubby do. Not enforce whatever team rules that were violated? How would that have been better?
Again...
…it wasn’t the suspension that drove Devoe away. It just doesn’t make any sense to lose a year as opposed to a few games. There was obviously more to it than whatever team rule he broke. I just don’t feel Tubby has done a good job of managing the people (read: players as people) on his team or recruiting the type of people who don’t fit the team’s culture.
I don’t completely absolve Devoe either, but when this many guys leave the program it speaks volumes about the leader.
I just think you have to look at why they left
To know what those volumes say.
Also, Devoe didn’t lose a year. He had to sit out a year, making him a year older when he plays out the rest of his eligibility. For a kid like him, who with enough development might have an outside shot at the NBA, that extra year of maturing physically probably helps.
I think it’s strange to say that the second suspension isn’t what drove Devoe away as it was immediately upon learning about it that he decided to transfer.
The weirdest part of these discussions is how little time is spent talking about Iverson. There are pretty good explanations for the departures of Carter, White, Joseph and Cobbs, but Iverson is much less clear. Once could actually argue that he should have been playing ahead of Ralph (I don’t agree, but it’s arguable) and he was going into his senior season. Iverson is your best case that something went wrong.
I wonder if ....
Cal, Oregon, and Iowa State have team rules? Or do they have them and just not enforce them?
Fred Hoiberg, Mike Montgomery, and Dana Altman have three things in common:
1. They are respected head coaches;
2. They run respected programs with rules;
3. They all turned guys Tubby could not keep in uniform into productive, leading contributors to three teams with better records and higher conference standings than the Gophers.
And you think
Those three guys wouldn’t have suspended Devoe for whatever got him suspended here? Why?
And why are you insinuating that Cobbs violated team rules?
And White didn't just violate team rules
I think it’s safe to assume that the states of California, Iowa, and Oregon have laws against burglary
"Our attitude is we look at ourselves and we grade ourselves. And even if we don’t like what’s happening on the other side, we don’t make a — it’s not our business" - Tony Larussa
So...
…as others already noted, #2 of your post above only applies to Devoe. And going to a new place doesn’t mean that someone is going to keep breaking rules (Devoe) or laws (White). You could argue that as transfers (especially for White/Hoiberg) it was made clear to them that they had to be extra careful to follow the rules.
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