Gopher Hoops Loses to Ohio State, NCAA Tournament Hopes Slipping Away
by GopherNation on Feb 15, 2012 10:16 AM CST
in Gopher Basketball
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PrintThe Gophers could not recover from a brutally ugly start against the #6 Ohio State Buckeyes. The first 16 minutes of the game was total Buckeye domination. Before the 5 minuted mark in the first half Jared Sulinger and William Buford each had already reached double-digit scoring and Ohio State held a 35-14 lead! The good news is from that point on the Gophers outscored the Buckeyes 41-54. J/K, that's not really good news because it is easy to come back when the other team loses interest a little bit.
The start to the game was concerning but I'm not terribly upset about the game, we were facing a much more talented team that has aspirations of not just making the NCAA Tournament but winning it. I'll make this recap short and you guys can talk about it.
The Good
Not a whole lot of good when you essentially get run off your home court. We did battle back and maybe showed some moxie by not giving up. This is a strength of the team. But for the good, I'll go with Oto Osenieks. The redshirt freshman hit double-digits for the first time in his career. He hit a three, had a nice dunk while drawing a foul and added four rebounds. Not an outstanding line but it might be a confidence builder for the young forward. I don't ever expect that he is going to be a player who contributes with a lot of points but I do think he can develop into a reliable contributor who will knock down threes if you don't guard him.
The Bad
Joe Coleman, where have you gone? After averaging 13.5 points per game over a five game stretch Coleman has now gone four consecutive games without a single point! I expected the league to adjust and Coleman to struggle for a few games, but not one point and only 6 minutes of playing time last night? What is going on?
Hopefully use his time off the bench to regroup and get himself back on track in time for the Big Ten tournament. It is great that Andre Hollins is stepping up and having a nice run of averaging 10.6 in his last five games. But it would be awesome if both of these guys began playing well together. Give me two young guards that defenses have to account for. I don't think Joe has been lost, he still has a bright career ahead of him, but he needs to shake this funk.
Also under "Bad" I could have gone with rebounding, three-point shooting and the bench.
The Ugly
Getting trounced 35-14 to start the game. Nearly impossible to come back from a 21 deficit in the first half against a top 10 team. It just cannot happen.
Time to move on, put this one behind us and hope we get seeded in the Big Ten tournament so we don't have to face the Buckeyes until round 3.
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The good news
Is that it’s over.
To me is that this loss was entirely expected, and overall the game ended up probably a little closer than expected.
Now we have to dig in and get our work gone. Absolute must win in Evanston on Saturday, followed be a bare-minimum must split against MSU at home and Wisconsin on the road, followed by a must win at home over Nebraska.
I disagree with the split
The path to the tournament is beat NW, Nebraska and Indiana. They have already beaten NW and Indiana once and Nebraska sucks.
Hard to believe ...
… a summation of the Good, Bad, and Ugly could contain no mention of Tubby’s poor coaching job in either the Bad or Ugly. If you go almost eight minutes without a point, very few rebounds, and on the wrong end of a 20-0 run and still have timeouts in your pocket you are dead asleep on the sidelines. The 20-0 run cost us the game.
Under the Good, Oto was definitely the highlight. He is a complete young player with a beautiful shot that just hasn’t started to fall yet with any consistency. A guy with his shooting form should never miss a free throw and should go 50% on completely open threes. I think he will get there and be a big scorer next year and beyond.
Under the Bad, Joe Coleman can’t contribute much the rest of this year. He is not in a “funk”. He is a one dimentional offensive player and the league has simply adjusted. He needs to have a different game next year to be a player.
0 points is a funk
over the course of four games even a “one dimensional player” should get fouled of accidentally make a basket. And being that his one-dimension is driving to the basket, that is something you can still do from time to time. If shooting was his only skill, that is pretty easy to take away.
Even when teams are forcing him left, there are always times when the D is slightly out of position and he can get a window to the lane.
what you say here can, and will, be used against you The Daily Gopher
by GopherNation on Feb 15, 2012 11:22 AM CST up reply actions
Coleman has been out of position on defense also
Time to put him back on the 2nd team.
Agreed.
Mind-blowing how he could be held SCORELESS for 4 games. That is just beyond anything I have ever seen. Honestly. Like you said, a guy trips and falls into you and sends you to the line at least once in 4 games! Fantom fouls. SOMETHING….total accidents get a guy 1 point in 4 games. Hell, bounce the ball off your foot into the basket or something….or have the scorer make a mistake and give you credit for a layup you didn’t touch. This is totally insane.
I can honestly say, I belive I’d score at least a basket in 4 games. Even in Big 10 competition…ha ha ha…and I’m a slow old man.
He called timeouts during that time
You want him to call one every time they score? If he did that, you’d complain that he wasted them.
"Our attitude is we look at ourselves and we grade ourselves. And even if we don’t like what’s happening on the other side, we don’t make a — it’s not our business" - Tony Larussa
Three very simple questions
1. How many timeouts did he call during 0-20?
2. How many timeouts did he have left at the end of 0-20?
3. Were the leftover timeouts at half time “wasted”?
You think any coach would use ALL of his time outs
In a less than 8 minutes stretch? No way. Not a single one.
To answer #1/#2 per the Google...
Here’s a link for ya: http://espn.go.com/ncb/playbyplay?gameId=320450135
- Game tied 12-12 at 14:33
- TV TO at the 11:56 mark (score 19-17)
- OSU full TO at 10:46 (score 21-12)
- Gophers full TO at 8:06 (score 30-12)
- TV TO at 7:55 (score 30-12)
- Game score reaches 32-12 at 7:18
- Gophers break scoreless streak at 6:54
So your answers are:
1) One timeout called
2) I would say 5 from my memory, but the official NCAA rulebook disagrees. So color my brain confused.
two TV timeouts, and OSU timeout and a Gopher timeout seems like there were PLENTY of opportunities to stop Buckeye momentum with stoppage of play.
Timeouts do not carry over, you get 6 for the game (4 fulls, 2 30s).
maybe, it was a combination of a few missed shots and playing a team that is clearly superior.
what you say here can, and will, be used against you The Daily Gopher
by GopherNation on Feb 15, 2012 1:04 PM CST up reply actions
The Good
Oto is looking like a solid B10 role player down the road. I don’t see the upside that others do, but I like him.
Andre has a competitve fire that I can see. I like his attitude and smile (reminds me of Magic’s). Plenty of upside.
EE has the instinct to be a good center in this league and works hard/hustles. Boxes out great. It was a good experience for him to play agst. Sullinger. Looked gassed at times but remember he has had a bum ankle lately.
Austin—-I like his all-around game and the fact that he always seems to have his head in the game (unlike others). I think his shot has improved.
Rodney has improved year over year and what more can you really ask for?? He showed a nice left hand last night.
Welch is the enigma. Shows promise (couple of great assists last night) and a nice stroke, but still not sold on him on a full-time basis.
I really want to see him at the 3 spot more
he’s flexible enough to do both but hey.
by Sportsavenue on Feb 15, 2012 5:37 PM CST up reply actions
Still Bad and Ugly - Air-balls
I only caught the final 5 minutes of the game, but I saw two wide-open 3’s turn into absolute air-balls, including one that went right to the hands of a Ohio State player, then whipped 3/4 of the way down the court for a dunk on the other end. Those were IOWA-ugly…
When we get the Pig, the Jug and the Axe, we'll have one hell of a picnic
Back on my soapbox
now that you guys have seen two straight real PG’s, do you see what I mean about us lacking one?? Watching OSU with a true PG, the spacing, balance, motion, etc. it all revolved around the PG. Those guys (Taylor/Craft) were PG’s from day one—-not what Tubby is trying to do (convert guys).
I totally agree
I was nervous all summer and leading up to the season that we didn’t actually have an answer at point. I like JW and Dre, but we still don’t have a point.
But I also think it is not as easy as saying “just get at true point”. You have to convince someone to come here. He brought in Cobbs, who is a true point and would have been a solid B10 player. But he left. Just getting anyone doesn’t always work either. After Tubby missed on other guys and had to settle for Mav.
what you say here can, and will, be used against you The Daily Gopher
by GopherNation on Feb 15, 2012 12:57 PM CST up reply actions
the 20-0 run was unacceptable
blame the coach, blame the players, blame whoever, a 20-0 run is just flat out unacceptable. It reeks of bad gameplanning, poor execution, lack of hustle, lack of desire, and general malaise. The whole team, coaching staff included, carries the blame for something like that.
What troubled me the most about last nights game was the realization that we are a long way, talent-wise, from the upper echelon of the Big Ten and country for that matter. Mbakwe’s injury doesn’t help, but we have no one that can do the things that Buford, Craft, Sullinger, and Thomas can do. Tubby has improved the talent here, but in all honestly I was hoping that by year 5 we’d be closer in talent to the upper levels of the big ten than to the middle and bottom tier teams.
overplayed yes, but...
A starting lineup of
PG – Cobbs
SG – Joseph
SF – Rodney
PF – Royce
C – Mbakwe
bench – Ralph
bench – Paul Carter (why not?)
bench – Dre
bench – Austin
that is a “talented” roster that isn’t Final Four worthy but it is very good and a top 20 caliber team. If you ask me (which nobody does but it is my blog so I give my opinions anyway) recruiting isn’t the problem like many have suggested. It is the lack of execution of offense and then some (not all) of the transfers.
that is a very talented roster.
what you say here can, and will, be used against you The Daily Gopher
by GopherNation on Feb 15, 2012 1:01 PM CST up reply actions
No, lack of recruiting
is not the problem. It is execution and transfers. Well stated GN.
Now, if we could just figure out why these guys can’t execute and why so many of them want to leave, we just might be able to solve this puzzle. Weather? Price of beef jerky? Asbestos in the dorm? The coach? Nobody knows.
You have bated me successfully
So let’s look (again):
White – behavioral issues and the AD basically kicked him out
Carter – sister had cancer
Cobbs – buried on the depth chart
Joseph – couldn’t stay on the court due to suspensions for rules violations
Iverson – buried on the depth chart
It’s my sincere belief that Tubby personally gave Carter’s sister cancer, telepathically instructed White to steal some clothes and shove a security guard, and arbitrarily changed the rules to entrap Joseph.
The other two just left after finding out that Tubby was actually the coach after arriving on campus. I mean, how could they have expected that?
AM, I didn't know
Tubby caused Paul Carter’s sister’s illness. Tubby’s at heart a nice guy so I assume by now he has apologized. Perhaps it was unintentional anyway.
Royce White was rehabilitated by Fred Hoiberg and not by Tubby Smith.
Justin Cobbs was buried on the Cal roster even before he arrived. Didn’t stop him from trying and succeeding at Cal. Tubby could not accomplish that.
Devoe Joseph was convinced by Dana Altman to change his behaviour, get on the court, and become the leading scorer for the Pac 12’s best team. Tubby could not do that.
Colton Iverson played extensively and contributed for three years with the Gophers. He was not buried on the depth chart and would have played major minutes this year. It takes a lot to drive a guy out with only one year left.
You must think coaches have super powers
Royce White was rehabilitated by Royce White. Justin Cobbs played his way up the depth chart at Cal, not his coach. To the extent that Joseph made any changes (we don’t know), it was him and not his coach.
I get how the coach is ultimately responsible, but to rob these young men of the credit for what they have done and instead place all the credit on their coaches so that you can perversely thus blame Tubby for not working the same miracles it, well, perverse.
And I don’t really understand how it could be hard to understand how a change of scenery and sitting out a year might change a young man.
AM, that's a beauty
My observations of Tubby’s record with players are “perverse” but your scurrilous rumor-mongering suggesting criminal conduct by a college kid not able to defend himself is ….. what? Honorable? ROTFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!
Yea, it's more than him pointing out the fallacy DAC.
The rest of us just aren’t getting as personal with it. You can dodge his point if you’d like, but it’s still a valid one. The players have more than an equal measure of responsibility when we’re talking about their mistakes (Devoe/Royce) and at least some measure of responsibility if we’re talking about deciding Minnesota/Tubby wasn’t right for them (Cobbs/Iverson).
There is no logical way to make this all about Tubby unless you think:
- he’s breaking the rules/laws for them or should ignore it when the do
- he hypnotized the players into coming here or flat out lied about who he was and his system (a scenario that would also involve the player never seeing a Gophers game due to Tubby’s magic powers)
Royce White was rehabilitated by Fred Hoiberg and not by Tubby Smith.
So Fred is the little angel on his shoulder? As amiller notes, Royce improving his behavior is on Royce. Also, he left after MATURI and the UMPD kept dragging the process out.
Justin Cobbs was buried on the Cal roster even before he arrived. Didn’t stop him from trying and succeeding at Cal. Tubby could not accomplish that.
Cobbs chose not to try and succeed here. Some of that could certainly be on Tubby, but at least as much (if not more) of the equation is on Cobbs.
Devoe Joseph was convinced by Dana Altman to change his behaviour, get on the court, and become the leading scorer for the Pac 12’s best team. Tubby could not do that.
It’s not Tubby’s fault that Devoe broke team rules twice and then decided to leave instead of paying the consequences. His decision to improve his behavior and take advantage of his second chance is his doing, not the coaches.
You have a habit of associating all the good behavior exhibited by players at the new school as the new coach’s doing. In some sense, this is partially true in that it is likely those coaches made it clear that the player was expected to clear up their act (in the case of Devoe or Royce) or work hard (in the case of Cobbs) to earn that transfer. But it’s more about the players taking advantage of a second chance. They could have had a second (or in Devoe’s situation) 3rd chance at MN. It’s not all Tubby’s fault that they chose not to. From the player’s perspective, it was probably easier to “start fresh”. Unless you think it makes sense for Tubby to completely ignore past transgressions there is no way to expect him to offer the exact same situation.
In summary, what I’m saying is simply that while Tubby probably isn’t blame free it’s not all his fault either. Even if you say Cobbs and Iverson left solely b/c of friction with Tubby, they still have to take responsibility for choosing to play for him (i.e. at some level they knew what they were getting into). Obviously things don’t work out the way you want sometimes, but you have to have a pretty clear agenda to blame a “breakup” like that all on Tubby.
I just meant we've covered it 1000000%.
It is a fact. We had some good/great players here who transferred. I don’t think getting talent here is the problem It’s spotty recruiting of positions and Tubby’s inability, in my opinion, to find guys for his system. He takes the best guys who will come here, instead of the best guys who can execute his style and his game. That leads to using his foot to shove square pegs into circle holes…..and teams that look at times how we looked last night. No “go-to” guy, no flow, bad chemistry at periods of the game, etc. Sure, we win the occasional game at Indiana…but we lose 2 against Iowa….we lack identity. When did the team last have an identity? Yes. Clem’s teams.
no go-to guy
because his go-to recruits left the program. and Rodney never developed into that guy
what you say here can, and will, be used against you The Daily Gopher
by GopherNation on Feb 15, 2012 10:45 PM CST up reply actions
And they outscored OSU by 10 the rest of the way
If you’re going to put the 20-0 run on coaching, you have to put the bounce back on it too.
"Our attitude is we look at ourselves and we grade ourselves. And even if we don’t like what’s happening on the other side, we don’t make a — it’s not our business" - Tony Larussa
not true
it is because we don’t have a practice facility.
what you say here can, and will, be used against you The Daily Gopher
by GopherNation on Feb 15, 2012 1:01 PM CST up reply actions 3 recs
i wonder if Tubby paid Dakich to say that?
If at first you don’t succeed, well than, have someone unafilliated with the program go on ESPN and air your grievances for you!!! Dakich even callled out the new (not yet hired) AD!!! I loved it!
Brewer
I’m happy to put the recovery on Tubby. Damn good job at half time, especially alerting Rodney to the fact there was a basketball game going on that night. But how about a coach that stops the damn run and comes back firing earlier. Anything wrong with winning the game?
How on this planet
is it necessary to “wake your guys up” against the best team in the division, at home?
I may never understand this team…other than, perhaps Tubby’s style puts even its own players to sleep.
I think RSII wanted to say a lot of things in his interview, but he took the high road. I think he has seen some things that make him shake his head as he watches Tubby shuffle guys around and manage a game.
Yes
Because as we have seen over the past 4 years Ralph Sampson is a basketball genius.
The PiPress article was interesting
I still think RSIII is just living out his dad’s aspirations. I think he wants to make his dad happy but part of him just wants to be his own person.
I'm talking RSII
And I think he’s probably a good judge of coaching strategies, having been involved in basketball forever….that’s all I was saying.
Sure he’s bias because his kid is failing to perform….
You don't know that...
…how does OSU play differently if the game is closer? Can’t compare the fact that we got it back to 9 points a couple times as a bounce back. Game was never really getting close, so OSU played the game they needed to play to win.
I’m not hammering Tubby for this one, and I’m not saying “coaching” got us back into it either. General game flow….runs….they had better runs…and I don’t think Tubby making changes could have put the fecal matter back into our guys’ shorts….
Gotta say it
But Trevor and Royce White out there and we aren’t looking at the same kind of talent gap.
???????
I cannot understand the general Tubby bashing that has become commonplace. Whether it be the local fat-ass (so-called) sportswriters or disillusioned fans…
Tubby came here from Kentucky to get away from the CRAZY pressure and expectations. He did not win a national title by accident…
Thing to remember is Minn is not, nor never will be Kentucky. When he hired here, I was very excited… figuring he would bring us routinely competitive BB, which he has. Did I expect B1G and nat’l titles right away—-NO… This program has been in disarray since “Clem the Gem” destroyed it… Tubby is the first coach in place to have some teams with a chance since the Jim Dutcher days… That my friends is too long of a span.
Some of the issues Tubby has had to face are/were not controlled by him… (i.e. Royce White being a f**n piece, Mbakwe’s legal issues/then injury, last year’s injuries and defections). To be fair, he has some role in the defections—but we will never know the details.
Some here have this team’s talent way over-rated… without Mbakwe, this is an average team—-and that’s what is revealed in the standings…
TexasGopher is spot-on—-we have not had a true point guard for years—-not since the Clem destruction era.
MSU and OSU have talent—it shows. The Gopher’s are still a work in progress…
We are not Duke, we are not Kentucky… Just like we are not Texas or Alabama in football.
Stop being so delusional… Tubby did not have a record streak of 20 win seasons by accident… Give the team a break…
by mnfanstc on Feb 15, 2012 1:16 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
If I bash Tubby,
it’s for a few reasons.
1. His teams get out-hustled and often lack fundamentals like simple blocking out. Or swinging the ball quickly in the zone offense. Bare. Bones. Basketball.
2. I feel like he recruits guys who don’t fit his philosophy of coaching or basketball. FSO makes me laugh out loud….but behind that is some truth. For Tubby’s mass substitutions and “different” game planning style, it takes certain types of players. Tubby grabs the best available players and thinks he can shove them into his style…his “tried and true” style from the good ol’ days…and he doesn’t in my opinion change his game plan to lever his talent. This current team is loaded with superb talent (at least at the high school level). Mr. Basketballs, guys being mentioned in the same sentence as the NBA (Williams and RSIII in some circles). But the team is all over the board.
3. There have been a lot of issues, and a lot of noise in the program. I don’t disagree when you break down each one, they are all easily explained…but it is still loud in the program, and 9/10 times the news you read in the paper is negative. Coach is in charge. Sucks, but that’s the way life goes.
4. Tubby treated Hoff like shit last year, constantly calling him out in the newspapers. Crappy. Hoffarber had Tubby’s footprint on his back as he tried to shove him into the circle hole….
All in all….Tubby’s had some really fucking bad breaks for a coach trying to salvage a program. Really bad breaks. It’s why I’m not calling for his head at all. I’m just saying we’d better see some god damned progress next season, I don’t care what the fuck happens. This team better be good next year. To me this year is over. But next year, nobody on this earth has an excuse for Gopher basketball not to be better than this. More consistent, better organized, coordinated, etc.
I am critical of Tubby
I don’t think anyone one here is expecting us to make national championships. We just thought we would get to the NCAA tournament with consistency and win some games once we got there. This is Tubby’s 5th year and we have been no better than a bubble team with 0 NCAA tournament wins. Even the two times we made the tournament were in doubt. Last year, we didn’t even qualify for the NIT. Unless we turn things around this year, we will miss the tournament again.
So what happens if Mbakwe isn’t granted, or doesn’t even want to return for another year of eligibility? How much better are we going to be next year? Hopefully our young guys mature and develop but I don’t see any breakout candidates. Maybe with a year focusing on playing PF Williams can become a force, but after that I see only marginal improvement from these guys. We have solid players, but not any real game changers. I honestly don’t know that our talent is any better under Tubby than it was under Monson (he left Nolen, Hoffarber, Damian Johnson, and Westbrook for Tubby).
I’m not saying we fire Tubby. But if his name wasn’t Tubby Smith I think a lot more people would be as critical as I.
Take a look at this article…which was written in 2007. I don’t necessarily agree with everything written here, but he is looking more prophetic than most of us would have guessed at the time.
I'm very unsure about Tubby.
I’m just not into handing him 100% for everything that hasn’t worked. Not saying you do rencito, just articulating my position. My concern is that we won’t be able to replace him with someone better without a practice facility (or without at least breaking ground/being well along in the fundraising).
As MV at FBT noted today, Tubby is producing at just above the historical average for MN. The problem is that he gets paid a salary (and has a pedigree) that gets folks expecting more (not unfairly IMO). But that also highlights the fact that we might not be able to find someone better as easily as we’d like. In other words, we face the Mason conundrum.
In a sense then the departure of Maturi may be a blessing. It means that if Tubby is fired, it won’t be this season. I think this is good as he’ll have another shot to make clear what he can or can’t do here at MN (which is useful since he hasn’t been a clear failure yet) and it won’t be Maturi replacing him (the benefits of which shouldn’t need stating). It also gives the new AD the chance to make his mark quickly and start fundraising ASAP for the practice facility.
Perfect GAU
“the Mason Conundrum.” That says it all about the current state of affairs with Tubby.
by Texas Gopher on Feb 15, 2012 4:22 PM CST up reply actions
That's fair
Although I’d point out that he’s on par with historical performance and at a Mason level despite all the drama, which leaves me with some hope that he can do what I expected of him (consistently top half of the conference and an occasional tournament run) if he could keep his guys on the floor.
And while I agree we need a practice facility, I’d point out to MV that there are a ton of gyms on campus for the guys to play at in the off season. As just a regular student, it was never difficult to find a place to ball at pretty much any time of day.
I would call the Mason Era
comparison crap unless tubby got to the NCAA’s 4 out of every 5 years. Mason took an absolutely HORRID football program and made it somewhat relevant for a while. Beating Penn State, Alabama, Oregon, Ohio State, Wisconsin, making bowl games.
Missing the NCAAs is the football equivalent of winning 5 games. Missing the FUCKING NIT is the football equivalent of winning 3 games, which Jim Wacker was able to achieve…may he rest in peace.
So I think you are being too complimentary when you say Tubby has earned the comparison to Coach Mason. Coach Mason gave us hope. Sure, he broke our hearts…but we were ranked somewhat regularly, at least in spurts. Receiving votes. Tubby “ain’t earned that yet”.
For my Mason comparionson...
…I was more focused on the idea of “you risk getting worse when you let this guy go” than any direct comparisons of records/results (which is really hard since we’re talking different sports).
The one thing we can all take away from firing Mason (a move I still support) is that you have to do a good job in planning your next hire before you let go of a coach who has made you pretty good but not great because the margin of error for getting worse can be thin.
And I agree...
…it’s like dating. You need to ensure you’ve got something lined up if you sever the ties. They need to have a short list ready to nail the minute they fire him. It should feature the 10 best mid-major coaches with more than 5 years of sustained success.
Winning 20 games
Is the basketball equivalent of going to crap bowl games. Tubby is 3/4 so far in getting to that mark, and pretty likely to get their this year (counting the conference tournament).
Disagree
in that any slot in the NCAA is better than going to crappy bowl games. It’s “the show”.
Bowl games are garbage compared to a trip to the NCAA.
So I equate the NIT with going to a bowl game. You get some extra practice time together, it brings in some money or you break even, you get to play teams you wouldn’t normally play…and god forbid, you make it to NYC it is a pretty cool experience. But it’s shit compared to the NCAA and nobody but the winning team will tell you different.
NIT is still too selective
Together with the NCAA, about 28% of college basketball programs make the post-season.
70 of 119 (I think) bowl series football teams play in the post season, or 58%.
And as MV notes...
…telling recruits that they can practice in the same place as the Joe College over the summer isn’t a good thing when Nebby and Michigan are showing the same kids the iPads they have in their lockers at the new practice facility.
Correct, it is really practice facility or bust for the program.
They just need to get this shit done. Like they say, it’s a need, not a want, if we want to compete.
Recruits smell that new locker room and floor in a practice facility with all the neat media rooms and other current technology like it….and you start getting filthy talent you didn’t otherwise have a shot at.
I believe this fully.
I don't think we're at "or bust" yet...
…but we’re getting to the point where it will become a big disadvantage, in both recruiting or in any future coaching hires (if they prove necessary).
We're very competitive without Mbakwe!
I admit, it amazes me…but we compete in every game. Guess we could argue last night never got close enough, but it wasn’t a “lay down and die” game.
So with that entire squad coming back….plus big Mo and everybody getting a year better. AND we drop RSIII. I’m not saying we win the B1G….but we won’t be WORSE than we are this year, which is shockingly competitive in all our games, even on the road.
That’s why I’m optimistic anyway….sort of looking at it as, guys can’t get worse, they pretty much all come back, so there is something there that leads me to believe we’ll be a little better.
Don't pin your hopes on Mo
It will have been nearly two full years since he has played organized basketball. I wouldn’t count on anything from him.
I hear you,
but damn did I love his footwork for a big man, and his soft hands/passing ability.
But then again, I saw him play only a few games.
You may be right. He might be SERIOUS rusty….
He's also practicing with the guys now
So hopefully not too rusty.
It's typical
Fans always direct their anger towards the coach. It comes with the job.
Some are unreasonable about it
But my philosophy is that it is the coach’s job to put the team in the best position to win—the players ultimately win or lose the game. If a shot falls or doesn’t fall, you can’t blame the coach for what essentially comes down to chance.
I just feel like we get less out of our talent and question MANY of Tubby’s coaching decisions. I think Tubby does a great job of recruiting—something he was criticized for at UK. At the U I feel like his actual coaching is what I question.
This is more where I'm at.
I just feel like we get less out of our talent and question MANY of Tubby’s coaching decisions. I think Tubby does a great job of recruiting—something he was criticized for at UK. At the U I feel like his actual coaching is what I question.
There are just things about how the team plays that could be improved by coaching that frustrate me. But I’m not sold that it’s worth parting ways over.
It's nobody's fault and nothing can be done
A guy walks into a doctor’s office carrrying his buddy who looks to be in bad shape. The doc asks what’s wrong with the guy. The buddy says, “He has a habit of eating dogshitt.”
“What”? exclaimed the Doc. “Is that what caused this?”
The friend said, “No, he doesn’t really like the taste of dog shitt so he goes to the garage and drinks gasoline.”
“OMG!!! Are you saying he eats dog shitt and drinks gasoline on a regular basis?”
“Yep.”
“Well why does he keep doing something that is making him sick?”
“Well, everyone agrees he can’t help it and there’s just nothing he can do about it.”
“Ohhhh, I see,” said the doctor. “Yes, that is logical and makes perfect sense.”
My beef with Tubby...
1. Has neglected point guard position. I’m so tired of combo guards.
2. The plays out of his timeouts are lame. I think Blake’s miracle shot is the only one I remember off hand. Remember the Michigan game at home a few years ago and Westbrook nailed a tying three, but Tubby called timeout so it was nullified…and then we had a half assed attempt to tie the game out of the timeout.
3. I still don’t think he knows how to break a zone on offense.
4. You got a rotation of ten pretty good athletes (at least better athletes than basketball players)…why don’t we press more? He’s way too conservative.
5. He’s babied RSIII all four years. For a guy that preaches that you have to earn your minutes, I find it ironic that Ralph gets rolled out as the starter for every game (injury not included) when their are more than capable options “behind” him (Iverson, EE) on the depth chart.
Besides these five items…I do really like him and hope they extend him out. I think this is the ugly lull (and it’s really not that bad when you consider the Monson era) in the program where we got hit so hard with defections the last few years that it affected who and what he was recruiting…and he probably leaned more on getting quality people in the program, to deal with less headaches on and off the court.
by Shawn Bradley Guy on Feb 15, 2012 4:19 PM CST reply actions
Tubby's record
Tubby may be at about the statistical average but here’s the thing …. are all you guys kids? Or were you in the barn with Fitch, Musselmann, Dutch, and Clem?
Do you remember when the capacity was 17,500 and opposing coaches would rather swim in the Arctic than play the Gophers at the Barn? Were you there when it was so loud your head would split and you loved it?
Did you see Lou Hudson, Archie Clark, and Don Yates perform magic together? Did you see Hudson break his wrist before his senior year, play with his shooting hand in a hard cast, and score 18 points a game left-handed? Have you seen anybody do that lately?
Did you see Michael Thompson and Jim Brewer? Did you see Kevin McHale demolish No. 1 Michigan at the Barn with a lot of help from Flip Saunders? Before that, did you see Dave Winfield walk off an intramural team and just absolutely terrorize the Big Ten? Any clue what Trent Tucker could do from 25 feet? Did you see Tucker, Winfield, Clyde Turner, Ron Behagen, and Bobby Nix win a Big Ten championship?
Did you see Bobby Jackson just simply control basketball games at the Barn? Willie Burton, Melvin Newburg, Kevin Lynch, and John Thompson? You hate Iowa? Did you see Veshon Lenard destroy the whole state of Iowa at our Barn? And how about Ray Williams at 6’3 jumping like Rodney? Quincy Lewis? Smooth like silk.
The point I am making is that Tubby has contributed absolutely nothing to the glorious history of Minnesota Gopher basketball. As a coach and as a recruiter (at least of guys who would stay), he has done zilch compared to the glorious history of our program. We have been blessed with some of the greatest college basketball players of all time wearing the Maroon and Gold.
The Barn was once feared like Yankee Stadium. Musselman, Dutcher, and Clem would have started a bonfire at mid-court before they let somebody score 20 straight points on them at home.
What you have today, gentlemen, is a mere skeleton of Gopher basketball. You have a coach who can’t work with players, doesn’t develop them, substitutes off a menu rather than based on what’s going on in the game, and hasn’t gone home and thrown up since the fat girl chased him home in 3rd grade. Bullshit. This is not Gopher basketball.
I think maybe
you are glorifying the “glory days” a bit.
what you say here can, and will, be used against you The Daily Gopher
by GopherNation on Feb 15, 2012 10:51 PM CST up reply actions
3 Big Ten championships in 75 years
Be very afraid!!!
"Our attitude is we look at ourselves and we grade ourselves. And even if we don’t like what’s happening on the other side, we don’t make a — it’s not our business" - Tony Larussa
GN
not really. The Barn felt like you were walking into a bare-knuckle, cage match, and the whole place might spontaneously combust. That 76-77 team (24-3) was something special. I was a 17 year old kid and my weekend boss (season ticket holder) would take me to games when schedules permitted. I probably could have sat and watched those guys run threw layup drills for hours on end. Flip will always be my favorite Gopher. The thought of him on the sidelines coaching the Gophers has always been a dream of mine. Enough old fart talk, we gotta win this NU game Sat.
by Texas Gopher on Feb 16, 2012 8:22 AM CST up reply actions
I would argue
that the Barn would be blowing the roof off today if the team was fighting for a Big Ten Championship, just like in 1977 and 1997. I was at a few games during that Final Four year and it was insane, but that was not because Clem made it a crazy atmosphere, it is because the team was incredible.
I also when to games during the Voshon era against Glen Robinson and Purdue. It was a fun atmosphere but I’m not willing to glorify it to the point where it was the most difficult place to play in the history of basketball. The craziness and difficultiness of the arena is a direct result of the team’s level of competitiveness. Mediocre teams produce mediocre environments.
Tubby can be held responsible for the team not being better, but the Barn atmosphere is not his responsibility. He’s being blamed for enough.
what you say here can, and will, be used against you The Daily Gopher
by GopherNation on Feb 16, 2012 8:56 AM CST up reply actions
That may be true (I'm too young to have been there)...
…but the fact is, the overall success level for the program overall, and most importantly, in recent decades, is still not as high as DAC wants to make it out to be. The Barn being a fearsome place over 30 years ago is not actual wins and losses. And more importantly, the level of success in the recent decades (which is what matters if you want to talk about coaching comparisons) isn’t any better on average than what Tubby is doing.
The “glory years” no longer define what this program is. I love celebrating our fave program’s history (which is why I’m glad they highlight the national titles and B1G titles at TCF). But we can’t pretend that “glory years” that are over 30 years past are in some way relevant when talking about how to judge Tubby. Especially not when the records of the years between the “glory years” and today are the same (or worse) on average than what Tubby is producing.
I don't know who to blame for the Barn,
but I lean toward DAC on one thing, it was a frightening place to play. And it was so loud my ears would vibrate. Specifically, 1992-1997. Glen Robinson, Bobby Knight, the Fab 5 from Michigan, Jud Heathcoat. Clem would rip that jacket off and stomp around and the roof would erupt. Ariel MacDonald, Voshon, hell…Nate Tubbs…Bobby, Sam, Q Lewis, John Thomas, Randy Carter with a knife in his back.
I won’t glorify the days as far as “damn we were good and now we aren’t as good”. We weren’t great….but in the Barn, we were. We knocked off some GIANTS in that place. I expected, as a fan, to win every game we played there. I never left with a voice. Sure, we’d lose our asses everywhere else and made the tourney I think one time in those years (out in Sacramento?)???? But shit was the Barn the team’s friend.
Now I see empty seats and can hear the sneakers. Not Tubby fault per se, just a sad state of the entire program right now. I can’t blame Tubby for all of it. I can blame Tubby for not putting a more passionate group of players on the floor who play harder than the other team, at least at home. THAT I blame Tubby for. Iowa comes in and shoves us around and beats us on our floor because they worked harder across the board? Tubby’s fault (actually the players’ faults, but Tubby is in charge of choosing who plays and what philosophy he teaches).
Remember when Tubby was hired? I recall, at least in my circles, thinking “finally, at the VERY least, we’ll play tough-ass defense and we’ll press teams to death”.
Meaning, we’ll never get outworked. Teams may beat us, they may be better than us, but never will we get out hustled.
WRONG.
OK, nothing can be done
Just because the Gophers once had an enormous home court advantage, once had great players, and once protected the Barn like a gold mine is no longer relevant, right? Sitting quietly while watching the other team go on a 20-0 run over eight minutes is just fine with you guys. Heck, I suppose Tubby was really pleased it didn’t go to 30-0.
I will simply say again, Bill Musselmann, Jim Dutcher, and Clem Haskins would have started a fire at midcourt and taken hostages to stop the disaster rather than sitting on the sidelines waiting for a TV timeout.
No glory days? Too bad most of you guys didn’t see it.
Oh lord.
Stop mis-characterizing what people are saying just to feel superior.
No glory days? Too bad most of you guys didn’t see it.
No one said this. What people did say is that the “glory days” were A) not as glorious as painted by your B) are so long gone as to be irrelevant to the current conversation and C) awesome home court advantage years ago is not the same thing as being a wholly dominant program (evidenced by the lack of B1G titles).
Sitting quietly while watching the other team go on a 20-0 run over eight minutes is just fine with you guys.
No one is saying this either.
I will simply say again, Bill Musselmann, Jim Dutcher, and Clem Haskins would have started a fire at midcourt and taken hostages to stop the disaster rather than sitting on the sidelines waiting for a TV timeout.
So what? Explosive personalities are not the only good coaches. There is not causality here. Just you pointing out (again) that you hate Tubby’s coaching style, that you miss the “glory days”, and as a result Tubby is the most horrible coach ever and needs to go. A great logical argument that is not.
Of course, two of those three coaches
Left in disgrace/scandal, and the third would have too in today’s environment (hard to believe Musselman survived the Ohio State brawl when you look back on it).
My memory only stretches back to the later stages of the Dutcher era. I fairly sure I was there for the first game back after the fateful trip to Madison. I was there pretty regularly under Clem.
And yes, it was great fun, especially when everyone was all squished together on bench seats. When I was five, I never understood how people would fit if it was all adults. But they did, and boy did the place rock. Some of that was lost forever when they reduced capacity, but it had to be done.
But I just don’t think we’re that far away from that atmosphere. If we can just get past the bad breaks, we could be there. Trevor should have been an name to add to your list. Rodney too, really, and maybe he’ll still get there.
the comparison to Mason...
making meaningless bowl games are not the same as making the NCAA tournament
70 football teams make a bowl game and you just have to get to .500.
less than 25% of hoops teams make the NCAA Tournament.
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