Michigan State Crushes the Hopes and Dreams of Gopher Fans Everywhere...OPEN VENTING THREAD
by GopherNation on Feb 22, 2012 10:40 PM CST
in Gopher Basketball
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PrintThe Gophers were up six, 52-58, with 3:25 remaining after Julian Welch hit a jumper. Minnesota would go the next 3:24 without scoring until Andre Hollins hit a meaningless three with one second. But MSU closed out with a 14-3 run and crushed the notion of a huge win for the Gophers.
The announcers nailed it when they said how the Gophers have nobody willing or desiring to take the a big shot. For three minutes we passed the ball around and then we would turn it over.
So frustrating that we played so well, with so much confidence for 37 minutes and then play so scared and timid for the final three. Michigan State is leading the Big Ten for a reason but we had them with our hand around their throats...and then we pissed down our own leg. Very frustrating.
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I didn’t think I’d see any team outdo Northwestern with the close game fiasco theatrics…I was wrong.
Honestly feeling more and more like the Big 10 is going to be a six bid league this year.
http://theboilermaker.blogspot.com/
by Bryan Steedman on Feb 22, 2012 10:49 PM CST reply actions
Explain the 'no' part.
I’m assuming it’s towards my comment about the Big 10 only being a six bid league this year, which as of now is hard to actually disagree with. Iowa, Penn State and Nebraska are all obviously out. Illinois has fallen so far down they’d probably need to win out the regular season or win the B10 tournament for a bid.
Northwestern time and time again has proved they can’t win the close game so unless they upset Ohio State or make a strong B10 tournament run, I don’t think they’ll get in as is. Hell, I don’t even feel confident that they’ll pick up both games at Penn State and Iowa and I doubt you’d see a team with a 7-11 conference record and 14 losses get in unless they put together a Penn State-esque tournament run in Indy.
As for Minnesota, they came into tonight with an RPI of 76 and only two good wins for their resume (Illinois is hard to consider ‘good’ with their flailing RPI and losing streak, so the NW and Indiana wins). Realistically, unless they pull an upset, you guys could go 1-2 the next three. 6-12 in the Big 10 won’t net you a NCAA bid.
So really, the only two teams with a realistic shot at the seventh bid more or less have to start pulling off upsets and come close to winning out. That doesn’t seem likely considering how each team is backtracking (1-5 l/6 Minnesota; 1-3 l/4 NW)
Just my opinion on the situation. I’d be interested to see why you think we’ll see any more teams from the conference get into the NCAA
http://theboilermaker.blogspot.com/
by Bryan Steedman on Feb 22, 2012 11:55 PM CST up reply actions
And it should be noted.
Ask me that question two weeks ago and I’d tell you the Big 10 was on pace for eight teams with a fighters chance of nine. Not anymore though…
http://theboilermaker.blogspot.com/
by Bryan Steedman on Feb 22, 2012 11:56 PM CST up reply actions
Ehhh.
so unless they upset Ohio State or make a strong B10 tournament run, I don’t think they’ll get in as is.
Most of what we’ve seen has said that 8-10 (losing to OSU) plus a first-round win in the B1G Tourney should get us in.
But you’re right, a 7-11 record won’t do it. Minnesota needs a couple of wins fast, and I think they can get it done against Indiana and Nebraska, but the bad losses against Iowa make it tougher for the Gophers.
Problem with Northwestern is they have a nasty habit of losing games they desperately need to win. On paper could they pick up 2 of 3 and win their first conference tourney game? Yeah, no doubt about it. But time and time again Northwestern has came up short in games they flat out should of won so I have no confidence in them doing so. At the end of the day their bubble hopes come down to how much faith you have in their RPI.
Indiana is definitely beatable but I don’t think they’ll lose to Minnesota twice and Wisconsin is tough at home. I think Minnesota is going to end up sitting 18-13 with an abysmal 6-12 conference mark and an RPI in the 70-80 range. Even if they upset Indiana I still think they’ll need to make a splash in the conference tournament.
http://theboilermaker.blogspot.com/
by Bryan Steedman on Feb 23, 2012 3:08 AM CST up reply actions
I mean, I'm throwing the Wisconsin game out, though it'd help.
Hold serve at home now, catch a game in the B1G Tournament and probably get another. Minnesota’s not out for good yet, but there’s a lot to do.
Go read basically any Bracketologist on Northwestern, though. We’re still Last 4 In most places. Anyways, I’m not going to piss off TDG by continuing this on their site.
Indiana is not the team we beat...
…they have come together nicely.
They lost by 12 @ Iowa...
…and are only 5-5 in conference since losing to us. They are still beatable. I’m not saying we will win. But a full (stress full) game showing like the Gophers put on for the first 34 minutes last night prob gets a W.
We fell apart
Playing the delay offense, panicking, and turning it over. They looked young and confused at the end. I’d call it sad more than frustrating.
But my irrationally optimistic side says if we play that well against Indiana and Wisconsin we win.
And I'd argue
We have played well in 5 or 6 losses…..so we can play plenty well and then still lay down and shit down our legs like we have done many times before this season.
What you did there
"Our attitude is we look at ourselves and we grade ourselves. And even if we don’t like what’s happening on the other side, we don’t make a — it’s not our business" - Tony Larussa
SSDD
When will the “light” go on for this team? Is it coaching, or have the players simply tuned the coaching staff out? It’s just maddening to have the same crap happen over and over and over again.
Unless we get some kind of mind-blowing recruiting class, I don’t hold out much hope for Coach Smith to turn it around. Even then, when he gets the high level recruits they seem to either regress or leave the program.
Damn…just damn.
The frustrating thing is
Its not the same thing. It’s new ways of screwing up and/or not executing each time.
But the guys clearly are responding to coaching, as they’ve made adjustments continually.
But we are a very young team, with a bunch of different guys who have played well at times but have different holes in their game. That actually leaves me optimistic for the future as these young players mature.
...if they don't follow the trend and bail on Tubby
When we get the Pig, the Jug and the Axe, we'll have one hell of a picnic
Two faults as I see it:
1) Tubby slowed down the game too early and when it got to be crunch time on the clock the Gophers panicked and threw lousy pass because no one wanted to take the shot;
2) Rodney Williams ass was so tight the last few minutes of the game a Mack truck couldn’t have pulled a hair out of it! He passed up wide open shots because he was afraid to shoot.
1 – totally agree that we went into stall mode WAY too early.
2 – Rodney didn’t step up but I thought Julian was much worse. In the final several minutes I think he accounted for three turnovers that lead to a lay-up or dunk. (maybe he only had 2 of them). Those six points were HUGE.
what you say here can, and will, be used against you The Daily Gopher
by GopherNation on Feb 23, 2012 9:14 AM CST up reply actions
Because he is a freshman this might sound strange, but...
I want the ball in Andre Hollins hands from here on out. Welch is a nice complimentary player, he’d be a fantastic backup/off guard, but his handle in late game situations is awful. I know Gus “fatigue factor on my schtick is getting high” Johnson has to make a point of talking about Hollins being out of control constently, but in my opinion his descision making is better than Welch and has a legit offensive game. Plus, it is becoming more and more obvious that the fate of this program, going forward, is going to rest squarely on the shoulders of Dre, Joe and Elliot so the more experience the better.
I'm with you
let Dre get some late game experience.
what you say here can, and will, be used against you The Daily Gopher
by GopherNation on Feb 23, 2012 10:47 AM CST up reply actions
Personally, I don't blame Julian
I think he’s stuck in an awkward, no movement offense (due to the stall) where nobody wants the ball. He’s trying to force stuff because…he has to. There is nobody on this team that is a leader. Rodney has lots of intensity, but not much composure. Ralph just isn’t a leader.
They needed to keep doing what got them in the lead in the first place: pass the ball, run the flex cut, get to the rim, and kick out for a 3 if that doesn’t work.
by Sportsavenue on Feb 23, 2012 9:54 AM CST up reply actions
Actually
Last night what was seemed most effective on offense was posting up Ralph. MSU wasn’t doubling down on him, and he was playing aggressively and, shockingly, physically. I think what they needed during the stall was to be able to get the ball inside for him to make a move or kick it out.
But he was on the bench with four fouls and for all of his energy, passion and tough defense, Elliott is not yet an effective post-up guy.
I have fucking BEGGED
for Welch not to be allowed to play the last 5 minutes of any game….even recreational.
In hindsight, it was too early I guess
Although I think the real problem wasn’t that we were killing clock but rather that we killed clock and then turned it over.
Why I want Tubby to stay:
because without him, why would Mbakwe come back? Tubby is the guy that brought him to the program, has stuck with him through all his problems, and, ultimately, has the biggest hold over the guy. Maybe I’m just being pointlessly optimistic, but I think Mbakwe has a good case for the 6th year between his legal problems (which have been blown out of proportion) and his ACL.
Roster Next Year if Mbakwe stays is top 25+ material.
1: Welch or Dre Hollins
2: Coleman, Chip, a new recruit called Wally Elleson who according to ESPN is an “excellent 3 point shooter”
3: Austin & Oto
4-5: MBAKWE, Rodney, Elliot, Walker
Off court: a bunch of people I don’t like to admit exist.
I don't see any chance
Mbakwe is granted another year of eligibility. He doesn’t meet any of the requirements.
True, but...
there are 2 years left on Tubby’s deal. We seem cursed to be in this spot: Monson, Mason, Brewster, and now Tubby have been in this purgatory-like range, where they’re not necessarily fireable, but the results don’t make an extension worthwhile.
The premise of the rule is 2 seasons lost outside the control of the player
this is almost always 2 years of injury. However, hardship can also be claimed. If the NCAA buys the idea that Mbakwe’s legal problems prevented him for playing for a year and that they were entirely outside his control, there is a chance he gets the waiver. Essentially, he’s in the same position as Royston was, and that worked out.
by Sportsavenue on Feb 23, 2012 5:53 PM CST up reply actions
The good and the bad ...
Tubby did the job in getting our team ready to play. For 35 minutes they played hard and smart and pushed the ball up the court beautifully. Nobody wanted this one more than the kid on the bench with the huge smile in street clothes. He almost willed the win.
I thought Tubby protected Ralph too much in the second half but that was a judgment call and could have worked out either way. But my view is when you are getting one of Ralph’s two or three really good games of the year you play him with three fouls and let the chips fall. It was a shame to take Ralph out of his flow and when he came back late he was not a factor.
I also disagreed with pulling Andre for Joe after Andre turned the ball over. He is still the closest thing we have to a real point guard and Joe’s “funk”, as AM calls it, continues. I think it is more than being in a funk. He needs an off-season to develop his offensive game. But with that move Tubby put the ball in Julie’s hands the rest of the way and Julie just isn’t prepared for that against a big spurt of Izzo defensive pressure, especially when four other guys are hiding from the ball. Welch is a natural 2 guard and will excel there next year.
The bottom line is the Gopher’s went into a shell late with the lead, didn’t have a point guard on the floor when it mattered most, and just couldn’t run any offense against tough pressure. It just would have been interesting to see a game that went 40 minutes with up-tempo Gopher offense and Ralph going till he dropped or fouled out.
Joe actually played very well
they need his strength, aggressiveness, defense and rebounding.
But you are right that Joe’s offensive game needs work. He’s missing a jump shot, and our opponents know that.
Broken record time
games are won and lost in the last couple minutes with coaching moves and PG leadership. When Tubby makes statemenst like “It looked like our guys were just nervous; looked like they just panicked,” Smith said. “We just folded. We just folded under the pressure” (PP) he needs to look in the mirror. The development of Andre at PG is not what it should be almost 30 games into the season. Not only am I questioning Tubby, but I really wonder about his staff?? On a positive note, the guys played hard and with much improved intesity.
You raise a good point, Tex
We really don’t know much about the staff in terms of teaching responsibilities. Who is “teaching” the big men? Vince Taylor? Tubby? I really don’t know but maybe someone else does. I think that might be a weakness on the staff as I don’t think anyone could say that Ralph or Iverson actually developed. And, while I like Elliot I don’t see a lot of difference between now and December.
Another question: would Saul Smith be an assistant on Tubby’s staff if his name was Saul Smythe and he played at Vandy or Tennessee? Just wonderin’.
Agree he played with energy ...
Especially early in the game. I thought for a moment that he was going to revert to the form of his great games mid-season. My comment was not about his overall game but the substitution of Andre for Joe with about 3 minutes remaining. I would have continued with Andre even though he had a turnover. Joe had one immediately upon coming back also.
The subject of this post was meant to be Joe Coleman
and to respond to AM’s comment above.
As I've said before...
…we are the absolute best “almost decent” team in the country….we’ve played more good teams close than anybody nationally. Zero research went into this statement, disclaimer…
We outplayed OSU most of the game, MSU both games (in the first game, they played football and killed us physically and we still competed well), Michigan most of the game, Illinois most of those 2 games. Loss, loss, loss, loss….we can’t close deals.
Youth? Coaching? All of the above? Either way….we are good enough to make games tough on the opposition, but they are almost assured of beating us if they put the work in. We almost guarantee we will lose most games by falling apart in games. Not just a little, but completely and utterly falling apart on the court as if nobody has ever played basketball before. We can DOMINATE an entire game and look completely in control, then a switch is flipped and we look like a 6th grade church team.
Was it? WAS IT?
Kidding….even the win felt like a loss due to the nature of it…ha ha ha…
My frustration is how we can have a team without a leader on it. How guys can make it to this level of play, yet totally lack leadership skills to demand the ball. How can you have a fucking ENTIRE TEAM of guys like that? Fuck. I’m just disappointed. Pissed off on their behalf. Fucking demand better.
And the loss felt like a win...
"Our attitude is we look at ourselves and we grade ourselves. And even if we don’t like what’s happening on the other side, we don’t make a — it’s not our business" - Tony Larussa
Leaders?
You don’t normally expect freshmen to be your leaders. Rarely are sophomores your leaders. It is not a given a junior transferring in from juco would be your leader. We only have two guys suited up who should be expected to lead down the stretch. Ralph, who from experience we know is just not going to do it, and Rodney, who damn well should be the club’s leader and the guy to take the ball to the basket in the closing minutes.
Ralph was kind of a leader last night
He really was fired up and aggressive. But it’s hard to lead from the center position, because someone has to pass you the ball. And it’s hard to lead from the bench with foul trouble.
I remember riding Westbrook back in the day....
…but I’d give anything for a guy to take horrible shots occasionally to not have to experience what we’ve experienced this season…
I'll never resent him
After attending the game in Madison that I still dream about sometimes…
"Our attitude is we look at ourselves and we grade ourselves. And even if we don’t like what’s happening on the other side, we don’t make a — it’s not our business" - Tony Larussa
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