Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Pro Quality. Fan Perspective.
Login-facebook
Around SBN: Why Hockey Fans Should Root For Devils Vs. Kings

The State of Golden Gopher Basketball...The Sky is Not Falling, It Is Just The Same Shade of Gray It Has Always Been

I, like pretty much everyone who has been paying attention, am not happy with the current state of the Gopher basketball program. I, like pretty much everyone else, sincerely believed that we would be and should be more competitive at this point in the Tubby Smith era. Five seasons under Tubby Smith with only 2 NCAA Tournament appearances and no post-season wins is not at all what I (or we) expected. But I also believe that this program is not in the state of extreme distress that many are making it out to be. I think there are a too many unfair criticisms being thrown around and I also believe that it is way too easy to be a fan when coaching is actually incredibly hard. Ultimately I do not believe that a coaching change is necessarily the right answer yet.

This is not meant to be a Tubby apologist post where I try to convince you were should be thankful he is here. I'm not of the assumption that he has been working miracles just to keep us at the level of mediocrity we are seeing. I do believe he is responsible for the current state of the program. Yes, there have been some devastating injuries and yes he has had to deal with some knuckleheads. And along the way there clearly have been some wrong decisions made. But also to be fair there have been some positives, like making back-to-back NCAA Tournaments and were it not for Nolen's injury he almost certainly would have been the first to lead the Gophers to three consecutive NCAA Tournaments. There has been some good in the Tubby era and there has been quite a bit of bad. Altogether it equates to mediocrity. Some are no longer willing to stand for it. I, for one, am not ready to abandon ship (or demand a new captain) quite yet.

There are a number of valid reasons to be critical of Tubby and the state of the program. But I think there are more invalid criticism then there are valid ones at this point. Some of these unfair criticisms need to be addressed.

Star-divide

First is the notion that Tubby cannot recruit. The argument goes something like the current talent level on the team is because Tubby hasn't been able to, for whatever reason, bring in talented enough players to compete in the Big Ten. I think that is unfair and untrue. There are problems with overall talent on the current roster but that is largely a function of not being able to keep players, not because he couldn't get talented kids into the program. As was pointed out in Marcus Fuller's article the other day, were it not for some transfers this would be an extremely talented team that right now would be competing for a Big Ten title (especially if Mbakwe were healthy). I'm not going to give a free pass on the transfers, that IS a problem. But the notion that he can't or is doing a poor job recruiting is false. He has brought in kids capable of being a "go-to" scorer, he has kept the best of local talent here, he has recruited a solid PG capable of leading a Big Ten team and he has guys on this roster who fit nicely into his system allowing for solid depth. Unfortunately many of them are no longer in the program and their scholarships had to be filled by kids with significantly lesser talent.

It is true that guys like Maverick Ahanmisi, Chip Armelin and Andre Ingram have no business seeing significant minutes on a Big Ten team. But those guys were late additions to make up for transfers. They were clearly not at the top of the recruiting wish list, but they were easy gets when there was very little available.

The fact is that he has recruited some very talented kids. Royce White, Devoe Joseph, Andre Hollins, Joe Coleman, Rodney Williams, Justin Cobbs and Trevor Mbakwe are all capable of being all-conference caliber players. Some have been already, some will be this year and the freshman have shown enough promise that they may end up earning that distinction before they graduate. Tubbys' problem has not been recruiting enough talent to Minnesota, the problem has been keeping it here.

The blame for that can be passed around. Some of it belongs on the shoulders of the players. White and Joseph both had some maturing to do and Tubby's old-school methods of straightening them out did not work. Joel Maturi was clearly part of the decision to keep Royce White in street clothes until his issues were straightened out. And Tubby, with a little bit of ego massaging, probably could have salvaged at least one or two of the transfers. Plenty of blame to go around on the attrition, but I'm trying to stay on point. Are we landing top 20 classes? No, but if that is your expectations then you may need rethink your expectations. Recruiting talent here has not been the problem.

This leads me to the second common criticism of Tubby Smith, his player development. This is a common critique offered up by fans who fall out of love with their team's head coach. Usually it is based on very little substance. Most often it is because there is one particular player who has not lived up to expectations. In the case of the current Gopher roster, it is because Ralph Sampson has had a terrible senior year and really hasn't improved much since his sophomore season. So the notion that RSIII has not improved is 100% accurate, but that is not indicative of the rest of the team. And most importantly it is not proof positive that Tubby and his staff are not capable of developing players.

Just this season I would argue that Austin Hollins is much improved over last year on both ends of the floor. Rodney Williams is not playing at an NBA lottery level, but he has very much improved defensively while slightly improving on the offensive end. In addition to solid improvements in points and rebounds his FG% jumped from 46.7% as a sophomore to 56.5% this year! Even Chip and Mav have shown modest improvements, they just don't have a very high ceiling. Tubby can make them better but those guys have a limit. Going back I think Blake Hoffarber improved quite a bit, especially defensively and as a passer. Damien Johnson and Lawrence Westbrook dramatically improved under Tubby. In Al Nolen's first three seasons his turnovers went down while his assists, points, steals and shooting percentages all went up.

To further illustrate my point that I believe Tubby's players generally improve, I point you to this analysis on college coach's recruiting and player development. This is a very interesting read and it ranks Tubby Smith as the 16th best college basketball coach when it comes to player development. That is ahead of guys like Mike Krzyzewski, Tom Izzo and Roy Williams (those just happen to recruit better players to begin with). The formula takes a look at 10 years' worth of data to see how players have progressed (offensively) over four years compared to the average improvement one would expect just from aging.

Ultimately I believe that this area of coaching largely falls on the players anyway. Coaches can work with Rodney Williams on his jump shot till they are blue in the face, but he is the one who needs to spend an offseason shooting thousands of jumpshots to see it pay dividends. As one who coached for several seasons, some players improve over time and others do not. The ones who do not, usually are getting in their own way. The point is, there is not a systemic problem of players not getting better under Tubby Smith and his staff.

Moving on to my next criticism of the critics. This one is a bit more grey to me so I recognize that I am opening myself up to some criticism here. But there is this notion that the University of Minnesota has historically been a great basketball powerhouse. That this level of mediocrity we are seeing is unacceptable for a program or our stature. Unfortunately this level of mediocrity is exactly where our program has been for decades.

Truth is we have always been a mediocre program with a couple seasons of very good teams. Further truth is that all but one of those seasons of national (or even Big Ten) relevance were done with various levels of breaking NCAA rules. In 40 years we have exactly 3 Big Ten championships. One of those does not count and another was under Musselman's tenure of NCAA rule breaking. Officially we have a Big Ten win percentage of .426 since Musselman's first season. Tubby isn't exceeding those numbers, his .425 win% is right at the same level.

This is not to say we should accept mediocrity and be happy with NIT bids. We should not. But there is a reality that breaking out of mediocrity into a consistent winner is challenging. Sometimes it takes patience. Changing coaches quickly and stunts program growth and perpetuates the cycle.

Tubby has not been the savior we thought he might be. The program is struggling but it is not as though he has accomplished nothing. He took over a program that had 22 losses the prior year and turned them into a 20-win team in his first year. This program has never been to three consecutive NCAA Tournaments, I would argue that injuries alone has prevented him from taking us to four consecutive NCAAs (Nolen in 2011 and Mbakwe in 2012). We have had some major wins over highly ranked teams and often been a competitive team that just can't quite get over the hump.

This year in particular hasn't really been all that bad, considering the circumstances. When Mbakwe was lost for the season and the Gophers stumbled to 0-4 to start the Big Ten season there was lamenting that this team would be lucky to win a Big Ten game or two. Well they have done significantly more than that by beating some good teams and being at the very least competitive in just about every game played. They are playing much better defensively than they were in Dec and early Jan. Are they going to make the NCAA Tournament? Not likely, but where do you think Northwestern would be without Shurna? Wisconsin without Jordan Taylor? This team has battled back and fought through similar adversity to what last year's team faced and folded.

There are a number of issues that I do not want to completely ignore. Some are directly in the head coach's control and others are not. There are plenty of valid criticisms of the current staff. But I also think it is so very easy to be a fan sometimes. It is very easy to point out the team's flaws and come up with the simple solution. But I can guarantee you that the solution is never as easy as it seems to those of us with a keyboard and a virtual water-cooler. Leading a BCS level basketball program is complicated. So what am I getting at? I'll go to a very recent comment from regular at The Daily Gopher...

So what does it all mean? It means that there is ample reason to be displeased with Tubby. Count me among those folks that doesn’t have a good feeling about where we are or where we’re going. But it also means that he is not a failure (that’s just needless hyperbole that twists the meaning of the word) and that firing him presents as many risks as it does benefits.

All too quickly within a fanbase the answer becomes to change coaches. I am a firm believer in being patient (usually I'm too patient, maybe that is the case now) with coaches of our favorite teams. But changing coaches is just as easily the wrong answer as it is the right. There are numerous examples of coaches who were successful at lower level programs, moved to a BCS program hungry and ready to continue their level of success only to plateau or worse at the higher level. Just off the top of my head Dan Monson, Greg McDermott and Todd Lickliter come to mind. Regardless of the level even when you achieve success, sustaining it is even harder. Ben Howland went to three consecutive Final Four just a few years ago, he's now on the hotseat at UCLA. Jim Boheim took 11 years to get to a Final Four, then it took him nine more to return! Chris Lowry at Southern Illinois took the Salukis to four straight NCAA Tournaments out of the Missouri Valley Conference., including a 4-seed in 2007. He could have had just about any available job but he chose to stay and has been sub .500 ever since. Sustaining success is hard.

While I want to see more wins, I do not believe we are seeing egregious errors that are insurmountable. I am not seeing a program that is years away from competing at a higher level. I am not seeing a program that is lamenting at the bottom of the conference year after year. There has been some mistakes made, some back luck along the way and a head coach who is turning people off with his lengthy list of excuses; none of which involve him. But this is not a program that is in a tailspin.

Am I convinced that a Big Ten championship is on the horizon? No, unfortunately my expectations have been lowered. But I still believe that our chances of breaking out of this current funk of mediocrity are still greater with Tubby Smith than they would be by hiring a new coach. A brand new coach will bring enthusiasm and optimism but it is a flip of the coin as to whether or not he'll be successful. There are times when moving on to a new coaching staff is the right move. I do not think we are there yet.

Comment 58 comments  |  0 recs  | 

Do you like this story?

Comments

Display:

I pretty much agree

But how many NCAA appearances would you have reasonably expected by now? I mean, when he was hired and someone asked, “how many of the next five years will the Gophers go to the dance?” what would you have said? Three? I can’t imagine saying more than than that.

And I no longer agree that Chip has no business seeing significant minutes. As a freshman, he was a raw athlete who wasn’t ready for significant minutes, but I can see the staff viewing him as a project with potential. As a sophomore, he’s actually developed a lot of that potential and I expect more. He just wasn’t the kind of talent who was going to play a lot right away.

As for Rodney, I didn’t understand how people started talking about the lottery for him two years ago. At that time, he was a raw leaper who didn’t really do anything else particularly well. People projected his athleticism far ahead of his actual skills. Had the hype not gotten so far ahead of things, we probably would be talking about how he’s really developed his all around game over the last two years (although he still can’t hit a jumper).

But I think your bottom line is exactly right. It takes time to break out of mediocrity. And when you have obstacles like the AD vetoing the hire of a key recruiter and big man coach, a bunch of transfers (for whatever reason), and key injuries, it’s going to take even longer.

With that, I’ll leave off with a reminder that one of this program’s biggest challenges is leaving in June.

by amiller92 on Feb 23, 2012 4:52 PM CST reply actions  

I agree with you on Chip. He provides decent minutes off the bench. But on many other teams in the Big Ten he would not be seeing any significant minutes.

what you say here can, and will, be used against you The Daily Gopher

by GopherNation on Feb 23, 2012 5:11 PM CST reply actions  

Great Article...Refreshing to hear

This has been my take on this program and you stated it in a very reasoned, and well-written manner. The facts are these:

Tubby is a good coach
The program is in better position than it was
The talent level has improved.
Injuries/transfers have ruined a couple potentially great years.
The program has stagnated.
EVERYONE IS TO BLAME!
More patience is needed.

by tc_brent on Feb 23, 2012 7:24 PM CST reply actions  

Good thoughts GN...

Great read… I think you are spot on!

Too much negativity in this town in the sports realm… seems easy for fans (I am one) to bash and blame and give the ‘what have you done for me lately?’ rant(s)…

I think your most important point is the simple fact that the Gopher’s bb program has pretty much been a steady stream of mediocrity—-It’s very easy to be a “homer” and think that we are or were better than we actually are or were—-breaking a program out of mediocrity, and maintaining a winning tradition is very tough to do anywhere.

Love following TDG… typically a good read without all the childish BS that some of the mainstream blogs are filled with…

Keep up the good work…

by mnfanstc on Feb 23, 2012 7:46 PM CST reply actions  

Yes

+1 or whatever it is that indicates agreement.

by amiller92 on Feb 24, 2012 7:55 AM CST up reply actions  

I am guilty of going off the reservation

earlier this week and this recent post by GN has me about ready to go off again. I am going to pick this apart piece by piece but will enter Exhibit A: Tubby’s salary was never discussed. I am under the impression he has a base salary of 2 million dollars. I am not sure where this ranks in terms of other coaches, but pretty sure it must at least be in the top half. Does anyone really feel like we have gotten our money’s worth? 2 mill. can buy a lot of coach. Exhibit B: Does anyone miss Glen Mason Yes, the Brewster tenure was difficult, but aren’t we all optimistic about the Kill Crew?? Does anyone miss the years of FB mediocrity under Mason?? All indications are that Tubby is a stand up man and I respect him and appreciate the fact we have had no NCAA infractions. However, in the words of Neil Young, “Better to burn out than fade away.” Tubby burned out last year—-now he is fading away. Our current theme song would be a Bob Dylan tune “You ain’t goin’ nowhere.” Exhibits C-Z are coming. No, I am not a lawyer. I have been wrong before and maybe you guys see something I don’t—-Exhibit C: just because we have “always been mediocre” doesn’t mean it is our destiny. I said at the beginning of the year this was “make or break” with Tubby in my mind, I am holding off my final verdict until then. I would like nothing more than to see them reel off 4 straight to finish the regular season.

by Texas Gopher on Feb 23, 2012 8:29 PM CST reply actions  

A – you are right that I didn’t mention his salary because I don’t think it is a huge deal. In the grand scheme of things what is the difference if he is being paid 1 or 1.4 or 2 million? I want a winning team regardless of the salary. Yes, he is highly paid but even if you hire Tim Miles and “only” pay him 1 MM, he is still being paid a LOT of money to coach basketball. But if Tubby was being paid a dollar, people would still be justified in demanding more than a .425 win %.

B – Glen Mason was given 10 years. His year 5 he was 2-6 in conference games. Year 6 and 7 he had 8 and 10 wins respectively. Point is that patience needs to be played out here. Mason got cozy after his 10 win season and was waiting for that next big job. I’d much rather give Tubby a couple more years than hire a Tim Brewster caliber hire.

C – It isn’t our destiny, but turning things around quickly is difficult. It will be our destiny if we change coaches every 5 years. That stunts program growth. 20 win seasons in four out of five years isn’t all that terrible, especially considering just the two major injuries.

You yourself said this was the year to judge Tubby. And look at what this team has done AFTER a fringe all-american and 1st team Big Ten player was lost for the season. He doesn’t deserve any awards for missing the NCAA Tournament but I think this may be his best coaching job while at Minnesota since his first year.

what you say here can, and will, be used against you The Daily Gopher

by GopherNation on Feb 23, 2012 9:52 PM CST up reply actions  

excellent points by the way

I recognize that there are two sides to this argument. I am not saying I am happy with Tubby right now. We could be and should be in a better place. But I also don’t believe that we are in dire straits, we are not at rock bottom. We are not at a place to be firing a coach who has just been “OK”.

what you say here can, and will, be used against you The Daily Gopher

by GopherNation on Feb 23, 2012 9:54 PM CST up reply actions  

Thoughts on B:
Exhibit B: Does anyone miss Glen Mason Yes, the Brewster tenure was difficult, but aren’t we all optimistic about the Kill Crew??

Here’s my concern with this line of thinking. Kill wasn’t the first choice. We are lucky to have him. All indications/reports were that Maturi was prepared to hire Edsel and that he backed out after winning the Big East. After we saw how things are going at Maryland, it’s pretty clear we dodged a bullet. That’s my worry. That once you get stuck with a Brewster recovering from that can be risky/difficult. Heck, even with Kill the rebuild is going to take a while and will result in about 5 wasted seasons (at least).

That doesn’t mean you don’t fire a guy if you are mired in mediocrity (I supported and continue to support the Mason firing, though not the timing or execution of it). It just means that you need to think long and hard about the decision, have a clear plan and a good list of candidates ready, and be sure that the guy you have isn’t going to get it done. And the U clearly isn’t in a position for 2 of the 3 (and the 3rd – being sure – is still a matter of debate).

by GoAUpher on Feb 24, 2012 9:41 AM CST up reply actions  

Sort of a side rant...

…remember when the alumni football players acted like a big group of oversized bitches when Kill was hired? Like little fucking girls…“I won’t support this team”…“wah wah wah”.

That really pissed me off. You’d think football players would have been more educated…and sure, Kill hasn’t “done anything” yet…but it still pisses me off how those guys acted at a time when the program needed to unite. Shows how fucked up and putrid our football culture really is in Minnesota. I love this year’s team already. I just get a vibe they won’t accept being losers like all those who came before them (not old enough to be their great grandfathers). I picture alumnus stopping at practice and this new group having a chip on their shoulder like “I ain’t gonna be a loser like you guys were”.

More on subject, I liked your piece. I think it was at the very least well thought out and articulate of the issues/criticisms. I am squarely in the “don’t fire Tubby this year” camp. If we miss the NCAAs next year, then I am 100% for moving in a diferent direction, because at 6 or 7 years….you are stuck and I can more comfortably admit that even hiring a Brewster who fucks the program up is worth the risk at that point. Missing the NCAAs is missing the NCAAs….I don’t give a rat’s shit ass if we win 15 games or 8 games a year. Both are total failures. You miss the NCAAs in college basketball, your team failed in it’s lowest goal. That should be a minimum goal for Minnesota, regardless of history. Especially with Tubby in control.

But alas….I wait for next year’s failure to call for his head. For now, I am on that fine line of “damn, tubby’s had some really bad luck, I’ll forgive him ONE more year”.

by jimipig on Feb 24, 2012 12:26 PM CST up reply actions  

Never been officially confirmed or anything...

…but there was some strong scuttlebutt about it among the TC press as I recall.

by GoAUpher on Feb 24, 2012 1:17 PM CST up reply actions  

BTW, +1 on your points.

The only real difference between where you and I are is our level of optimism. I still hold out a little more hope right now then you do I think.

by GoAUpher on Feb 24, 2012 9:54 AM CST up reply actions  

I am going to take a break until

after the season is over like I originally intended. My last thought is what twisted me off after the NU game. This team does not have what I call a “hungry gene.” This usually develops from the top down and not vice versa. No doubt Tubby had it at one time, but I don’t see it and I don’t see the team playing consistently “hungry.” This conference is too deep and balanced for anything less. Now Kill and Co. impresses me as a pack of starving hyenas (although they may not look it!!).

by Texas Gopher on Feb 23, 2012 10:43 PM CST reply actions  

Having played with guys who lacked "the hungry gene"...

…I’m not willing to place all the blame for that on Tubby. I played my D-III college ball under a very good coach (several conference COY awards, led the team to deep tourney runs in the years after I left, etc). He was very fiery and passionate in practice and during games. VERY competitive. But we still had guys who he couldn’t motivate all the time.

Now, part of that is on him because he recruited them. But it was also on the player for not “wanting it more” at times. Sometimes, players aren’t hungry enough.

by GoAUpher on Feb 24, 2012 9:49 AM CST up reply actions  

agreed

I played and coached at D3 level for 10 years. The guy who imo was the best coach in the conference was incredibly laid back. He rarely stood up to yell anything to his players during game and if he called a timeout because of a run you were on that was a HUGE compliment. But his teams were extremely well coached.

And some guys just aren’t as competitive as others. I don’t know that you can fully blame Tubby for Ralph being so laid back. You can push and push but eventually you either push them away or they have to take it upon themselves.

what you say here can, and will, be used against you The Daily Gopher

by GopherNation on Feb 24, 2012 10:10 AM CST up reply actions  

And my issue is

how you get a WHOLE FUCKING TEAM of guys like that at the same time!!!! That is what is so horribly disappointing to witness….

by jimipig on Feb 24, 2012 12:28 PM CST up reply actions  

Not all of them

I don’t put Andre, Chip, Coleman, and Oto in that category. They may not play smart a lot of the time but I don’t think any of them quit in a game.

by DACGold on Feb 24, 2012 1:16 PM CST up reply actions  

And Austin

Remember how he single-handedly got us into overtime against Illinois (the third time)?

by amiller92 on Feb 24, 2012 1:34 PM CST up reply actions  

Solid perspective

Very thoughtful, GN. If I have disagreements it would be only in degrees, not dramatic. Here they are:

1. Losing 20 of the last 26 Big Ten games is not quite treading mediocrity waters. It is decidedly less than mediocre.

2. You are not really a good recruiter unless they stay and play for you. Brewster’s first full class was rated 17th in the nation. Last season we had Gray, Keanon Cooper and a couple of others from that class contributing. So Brewster was not a good recruiter. Tubby has brought in some very good kids but not enough remain to proclaim him a good recruiter at Minnesota.

3. He bears full responsibility for losing White, Devoe, Cobbs, and Iverson. He is the head coach. Yes, Maturi pushed White out. Tubby could have made it a real issue and demanded otherwise. I believe he could have prevailed had he risked the political capital. With Devoe it was purely standing on “old school” protocol and the FSO. With Cobbs it was FSO. With Iverson it was Tubby’s lack of respect for his effort vs respecting Ralph for little effort. Given Trevor’s injury — totally out of Tubby’s control — we could have really used Iverson this season and that was within Tubby’s control.

4. You don’t mention Tubby’s attitude and demeanor. Has he always been that mellow on the sidelines? To the point of sometimes seeming disinterested? This affects a team. The team reflects the coach.

In response to AM’s question above (how many NCAA tournament bids did you expect in five years under Tubby?), my answer would be “at least four”. It is Tubby Smith, a legendary coach, we hired not a guy who had a couple of good years at Drake University.

As I have posted here some time ago, there is no realistic discussion of replacing Tubby. Maturi certainly cannot / will not do it and a new AD will never take that on in his first year. Furthermore, I would not want Tubby fired. He has some good young talent and he should be allowed to work with these guys for a year or two more. Secondly, if it becomes clear we need a change I would hope we have an AD that can secure Tubby’s retirement, not removal. Tubby has been a great credit to college basketball and his career should end well.

by DACGold on Feb 24, 2012 8:12 AM CST reply actions  

1 – true, that is an awful record. Prior to that he was 31-31. Then you have to account for significant injuries. Losing Nolen was brutal last year and then Mbakwe this year. Even if you think Tubby is a terrible coach you have to admit that the record would be very different just with avoiding losing your most important player two years in a row.

2 – I’m not talking about recruiting a highly RANKED class, that is what Brewster did. Tubby actually brought in guys who turned out to be very talented. Recruiting and retaining are two different things. I am AOK with ripping him for not retaining his best players. But I don’t see how he can be ripped for his recruiting.

3 – if you want to say the attrition is 100% Tubby’s fault that is fine. I may disagree slightly but I see your point.

4 – I don’t agree with this at all. I don’t think he appears disinterested at all. He is on the floor coaching every game that I’ve seen. He isn’t a huge yeller/screamer and never has been. He coaches and he gives the Tubby stare when you screw up. Just in the Mich St game, Coleman made a minor mistake and when he was coming off the floor Tubby stopped him and corrected him. Wasn’t yelling or demeaning the kid, he was coaching him. I think when things start to go bad for a program then you always hear things from fans like the coach isn’t trying, he lost the locker room, the game has passed him by or some other non-quantifiable excuse.

Lastly I like your thoughts on pushing towards retirement rather than just firing. I’d rather see a nice NCAA Tournament run next year on the backs of Mbakwe-Coleman-Hollins-Hollins-Williams.

what you say here can, and will, be used against you The Daily Gopher

by GopherNation on Feb 24, 2012 8:30 AM CST up reply actions  

With that starting lineup ...

and the guys we have in reserve, I think maybe I could guide the squad to the NCAAs. But I give it no more than 10% chance that Trevor gets another year. On the other hand, if he miraculously got that extra year I give it 110% chance that he returns. Just watching Trevor on the bench with his smile and intensity of being “in the game” has been one of the rewards of a fairly dismal year.

In Trevor’s absence next year I remain very concerned about our lack of a strong post presence. Elliot is going to be solid, though not a big scorer. We need more than that. Counting on Mo is probably fantasy after nearly two years away from basketball. And I continue to wonder who coaches our big men? I can agree with you generally that Tubby has developed players well but the big men are the exception so far.

by DACGold on Feb 24, 2012 9:33 AM CST up reply actions  

I don't understand why you are dismissing Mo

He should be at least as capable as he was as a 19 year old freshman. The question is how much he’s been able to improve by only practicing and not playing in game. We won’t know the answer to that until next year, but I would expect just some extra time to mature means some improvement. Even if he doesn’t, he will be young player who can contribute and has a lot of potential to improve.

I do wish we had Jimmy Williams to coach our big men though.

by amiller92 on Feb 24, 2012 10:18 AM CST up reply actions  

Not totally dismissing Mo

I am just skeptical that a guy being away from active competition for almost two full years will have developed. He couldn’t have gotten better in practice last year and early this year because he wasn’t even allowed to practice. I’m not sure when he was cleared to active practice but I don’t think it was too long ago.

In terms of recovery from his injury, this is not a Trevor Mbakwe body. That’s a lot of weight to put on the lower body.

It probably depends what he does in the off-season. I hope Tubby can place him with a good summer league so he gets playing time against real competition.

I would love to see Mo be a big part of the rotation next year. Heck, I would be overjoyed if Mo was Tubby’s Courtney James. I just think it is somewhat whimsical to count on anything like that.

by DACGold on Feb 24, 2012 10:56 AM CST up reply actions  

He looks quite a bit slimmer to me

And hopefully he plays Howard Pulley this summer, or something equivalent.

by amiller92 on Feb 24, 2012 11:04 AM CST up reply actions  

Howard Pulley

Is what I had in mind too. There may not be a lot of defense over there but at least Mo would get some good conditioning with the run-and-gun basketball.

by DACGold on Feb 24, 2012 12:07 PM CST up reply actions  

The tend to get old guys

Who aren’t afraid to mix it up inside either. Which woulda been good for someone like Ralph, who needed toughing up, but I don’t think ever played there.

by amiller92 on Feb 24, 2012 12:17 PM CST up reply actions  

Did Ralph

Ever play anywhere in the summer? Not that I know about.

by DACGold on Feb 24, 2012 1:18 PM CST up reply actions  

I thought this summer

he went to a top “big man” camp in Chicago. Or for one on one workouts to get ready for the NBA…to see if he was ready.

Not sure why I think that…

by jimipig on Feb 24, 2012 2:08 PM CST up reply actions  

Time away from the game

… didn’t seem to hurt Mbakwe. No reason to think it would hurt Mo, especially since he’s been healthy enough to play, practice, lift weights, etc.

Journalism. Enhanced.

by MNdailyGuy on Feb 24, 2012 4:50 PM CST up reply actions  

True...

…but I think Mo has more work to do to get to the same level.

by GoAUpher on Feb 24, 2012 5:31 PM CST up reply actions  

Looking ahead to the inevitable day ...

… when Tubby retires, can we talk a little bit about “old school” vs some other style of coach / player relationships?

I respect that Tubby treats players like I treat my kids insisting that rules matter. I respect that parents (well, mothers) feel safe in sending their kids to play for Tubby. But the brutal reality is in today’s culture that concept can be overcooked. I would like the next coach to be strong and solid with rules but understand better how to bring problematic players into his world, not shut them out.

Minnesota does not get kids who are different from all the other schools in the country. The talent pool is pretty much the same for everyone unless you are Stanford, Duke, or Northwestern. Very few top programs have lost four kids in two years so far as I know. That means most D-1 coaches have the skill to work with their kids and keep them happy and committed to the program.

by DACGold on Feb 24, 2012 9:42 AM CST reply actions  

His son won't stand a chance

unless they run off some NCAA trips….at that point, all this silly bullshit we’ve been arguing will be behind us. The “he’s had bad luck, he’s a good coach” crew will win, and the “he sucks, he needs to be fired, he has quit caring!” crew will also win, because the gophers will be good again!

Win/Win!!!!!

by jimipig on Feb 24, 2012 2:09 PM CST reply actions  

Another tangent...

I’m fucking proud of Iowa. I know you all hate that hell hole as I hate Wisconsin and Illinois…but watching them dismantle us….I really respect how scrappy and hard they play.

Love them knocking off IU and Wisky….Wisky TWICE….is excellent. They at least do the unexpected and provide their fan base with some excitement. Sure they have no chance at the NCAA…but shit, at least they did more than beat Nebraska and Penn State this Big 10 season (okay, so we beat NW, ILL (who sucks!) and our huge win at IU)…..

Good for them I says…

by jimipig on Feb 24, 2012 2:12 PM CST reply actions  

They beat us by two scores or less

Let’s not exaggerate and call it a dismantling. But yes, good for them.

"Our attitude is we look at ourselves and we grade ourselves. And even if we don’t like what’s happening on the other side, we don’t make a — it’s not our business" - Tony Larussa

by mnbrewer on Feb 24, 2012 2:47 PM CST up reply actions  

Next year?

I’m willing to give Tubby one more year, but in the meantime, some random thoughts on next year….

First of all, I am so sick and tired of hearing about “20 win seasons”. Is anyone truly proud of the Gophers’ 12 wins against the non-conference patsies they beat this year? C’Mon…..Much more indicative of a team’s strength year to year is the conference record. That has to improve.

There is little to no chance that both Trevor and Rodney will be back next year, probably neither since it is a long shot with Trevor, and some fool will get in Rodney’s ear and tell him he is ready. So, let’s move on. Also, my hunch is that Mav and Chip will be gone as well. I like Chip. He brings great energy and athleticism to the game. But he’ll want to play more than 4 minutes a game like versus Michigan State. Just watch his body language and non verbals during timeouts when he is not in the game. Do the words angry or disinterested come to mind?

Finally, what about our recruiting? Doesn’t look good for next year. Only 2 “average” 3 star guys according to most sources, and neither is a point guard! How can that be? Having only 2 recruits would be okay if the rest of the team were loaded, but it is not. And have you seen what Michigan State, Michigan, Indiana, Purdue, and even Iowa have coming in next year?? We won’t be moving to the upper tier of the Big 10 anytime soon……

by Norske Guy on Feb 24, 2012 2:25 PM CST reply actions  

If Chip is gone next year

I hope it’s about 50 yards east to the Bank. Chip would be one of Jerry’s six best players the minute he walked on the field. He turned down Les Miles and LSU for this.

by DACGold on Feb 24, 2012 2:33 PM CST up reply actions  

Agreed!

I would love to see him as a corner or safety, helping our defensive backfield.

by Norske Guy on Feb 24, 2012 2:36 PM CST up reply actions  

So much wrong

First, yeah, I am proud of getting 12 non-conference wins. Because that’s the way college basketball works. You’ve got to win those game. We also didn’t played some decent teams.

Next, there is very little chance that Rodney isn’t back. If he declares, he will not be drafted. He isn’t there yet. But I guess he could transfer.

I agree that Mav and Chip are big risks to transfer. Hopefully only Mav does as I think Chip has a future if he’s patient.

As to the number of recruits, you know there are limits on scholarships, right? You can’t have more recruits than scholarships (well, not a players that are worth talking about).

by amiller92 on Feb 24, 2012 2:40 PM CST up reply actions  

Wrong?

Darn right you better win your games against the patsies. But it doesn’t help your RPI or strength of schedule.

Of course Rodney isn’t ready for the NBA. I’m just sayin’ that he has improved just enough that he may listen to the demon on his shoulder who tells him to turn pro. (Europe, Australia, etc.)

I know about the scholarship limit. But if you only have 2, are Ellenson and Buggs the best we can do?

by Norske Guy on Feb 24, 2012 2:57 PM CST up reply actions  

Why would he turn pro for Europe or Australia...

…when he has a shot to improve and make an NBA roster? Europe/other countries will always be an option for him.

by GoAUpher on Feb 24, 2012 5:33 PM CST up reply actions  

only 2 recruits

because we only have 2 scholarships

what you say here can, and will, be used against you The Daily Gopher

by GopherNation on Feb 24, 2012 10:16 PM CST up reply actions  

jimi, I'm going to give you the benefit of a doubt ...

… and just assume (fervently hope?) that when you say “I’m effing proud of Iowa” you are only talking about the basketball team and about the seven hours they spent accomplishing what you cite. You can’t possibly be proud of the whole hog pen shitthole.

by DACGold on Feb 24, 2012 2:28 PM CST reply actions  

ABSOLUTELY!!!!!

I would otherwise shit on the fabric of that institution if I had the opportunity….

by jimipig on Feb 24, 2012 2:30 PM CST up reply actions  

Rodney has no choice to go pro...

unles he heads to Europe. I’m fairly confident he either quits basketball, or is back. He can’t or chooses not to, take over college games. What does he have to offer the pros? He is weak relative to other 3’s in the league physically. He would get physically destroyed. And he can’t shoot well enough. Sure…he can dunk….yippeee fucking deee….

Trevor…I can’t see it. Agreed.

Next year is due or die for Tubby. I can’t even say for sure, if it is a shitty season, that he makes it through the entire season. I think he’s on a tight rope after this past couple seasons and general feeling toward the program. Also, must have momentum on a practice facility deal next year.

by jimipig on Feb 24, 2012 2:31 PM CST reply actions  

Rodney is going ....

Nowhere. He’s not quitting; he’s not transferring; and he’s not going pro in Europe. As much as we wish he could take over close games, he still made by far the biggest improvement from last year to this year. He is a real Big Ten player. He only has one slim chance of ever wearing an NBA uniform and that is coming back for his senior year and making an even bigger leap next year.

by DACGold on Feb 24, 2012 4:44 PM CST up reply actions  

I too wouldn't be surprised to see Rodney leave

he shouldn’t and he has no shot of being drafted, but that doesn’t mean he won’t go pro. Guys get things in their heads and then they get agents or family who reaffirm what they already want to believe and then they declare. If I were setting the odds I think it would be 50-50 that he is back.

Really I don’t know that he’ll improve much between now and next season so maybe his stock is highest this year.

what you say here can, and will, be used against you The Daily Gopher

by GopherNation on Feb 24, 2012 10:20 PM CST up reply actions  

Men's and women's hockey both win Friday night.

Holy shit, St. Cloud’s women’s team is made of butt, and I don’t mean that in a sexual way.

by Erik T on Feb 24, 2012 10:19 PM CST reply actions  

Very Well Written Article Covering All Bases

Gophers have underachieved the past 5 years and especially the past 2 seasons.

Tubby is a good coach (still among Top 20 in Div I per career W-L % record) but not great.

Injuries and transfers are part of the reason for the dismal results of the past 2 seasons (17-14 last year, 17-11 so far this year). Tubby hasn’t had such poor W-L records since 1992 and 1993 seasons at Tulsa.

I really wonder if basketball success is in the cards at Minnesota. The Gophers have won only 4 Big 10 titles since The Barn opened in 1928. They have only a few NCAA tourney appearances (and one FF) since it started in 1939. Their all-time W-L % record is slightly above 50%.

I don’t see the ingredients for a basketball powerhouse regardless of the name of the coach. An 85 year old arena. No practice facility. No tradition of sustained excellence.

by FortyYearCatFan on Feb 25, 2012 7:17 AM CST reply actions  

Tubby's health

One thing I think is missing from this (and every other) analysis I’ve seen is the unknown quantity that was Tubby’s health during his bout with prostate cancer. Obviously nobody knew about this until after the fact when he publicly announced it.

It may have had nothing to do with his performance, but I suspect it affected him and his relationship with his players. He was diagnosed in spring of 2010, and had surgery the following year (April 2011). It was in this span that the player attrition to transfer began.

Prostate cancer can be a very private thing, and it appears externally that the Smith family kept it that way as well. My father had prostate cancer, and had to undergo a similar surgery. During the time leading up to and for some time after the surgery, my normally gregarious father was very different. Seemed to be a shell of his former self, withdrawn and quiet, until he finally fully recovered. I wouldn’t be surprised if Tubby didn’t even tell the team much of the details.

At any rate, I’m not suggesting that this is the full blown reason we lost players, but I certainly feel it may have played a role. When the homesick Cobbs and the disgruntled Joseph needed calming or ego stroking, perhaps Tubby couldn’t be there as much as he needed to. Just something to contemplate.

by J-Torto on Feb 25, 2012 9:43 AM CST reply actions  

I'd Worry More About Early Onset Of Alzheimers

His father Guffrie Smith, Sr had it for many years until he finally passed away a few years ago.

Alzheimers can be an inherited condition and comes on slowly.

by FortyYearCatFan on Feb 25, 2012 7:58 PM CST up reply actions  

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

Minnesota Golden Gophers sports--Usually analytical, sometimes snarky.

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recent FanPosts

47487
B1G Conference FB schedules for 2015 and 2016 released
Daily_logo_small
What does the Vikings stadium deal mean for Gopher football?
47487
B1G Homecoming Kickoff Times announced
83217-125958-hawkeye_super_small
Gophers Host a Kegger!
47487
Big Ten announces prime-time TV schedule
47487
President Kaler announces VCU athletic director as AD finalist
Small
Hoops Season In Review
Small
Gophers Hockey Preview
Small
Frozen Four Preview
Small
Gophers 2013 Basketball Prospectus

+ New FanPost All FanPosts >


Managers

Mn_basketball_small GopherNation

Imagescary7xfo_small Jeffrick

Img-20101223-00043_small JDMill

Editors

Imgres_small PJS

Bigbuck_small Buck Bravo

Dsc02076_small JG2112