Gophers Travel to Madison Looking to End Their Current 5-Game Losing Streak - OPEN THREAD
by GopherNation on Feb 28, 2012 3:43 PM CST
in Gopher Basketball
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PrintMinnesota Golden Gophers at Wisconsin Badgers, Feb 28, 2012 7:00 PM CST
The Badgers kicked off this current streak of pain, suffering and apathy. Can the Gophers get a win to regain some confidence?
Game Time: 7:00
TV: BTN
| Pos | Minnesota | Pnt/Gm | Pnt/Gm | #15 - Wisconsin |
Pos | |
| PG | Julian Welch | 10.2 | 14.3 | Jordan Taylor |
G | |
| G | Joe Coleman | 5.5 | 7.8 | Josh Gasser | G | |
| G/F | Austin Hollins | 8.8 | 10.7 | Ryan Evans |
F | |
| F | Rodney Williams | 10.7 | 6.1 | Mike Bruesewitz | F | |
| C | Ralph Sampson III | 7.7 | 10.6 | Jared Berggren | C | |
| Bench | Andre Hollins | 6.1 | 8.0 | Ben Brust | Bench | |
| Bench |
Chip Armelin | 5.7 | 2.0 | Frank Kaminsky |
Bench | |
| Bench |
Eliott Eliason |
2.6 | 2.9 | Rob Wilson |
Bench |
Match-ups are meaningless. The Gophers have to play with some passion, not to win this game but to show that they have some pride and competitiveness.
In the last four years the Gopher basketball team is 8-20 in the month of February.
- 1-6 this year
- 1-6 last year
- 4-3 in 2010
- 2-5 in 2009
That adds up to a .229 win percentage in a month when teams should be getting better (those in favor of replacing Tubby, you are welcome for that little stat). Winning today on the road would be really nice for everyone wouldn' t it?
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I'm not optimistic
And I have been for every game except Ohio State. This is probably going to be ugly.
But then again, maybe my lack of optimistic is reason to be optimistic? This is all about me, right?
Gotta be the production, right?
Can’t be that silent.
Heck of a half
Good rebounding.
But hat technical really worked for Bo. Got every call after that.
Second game in a row
We can hit from the lane
Tollackson is absolutely ripping Jordan Taylor
called him a “fraud” for selling contact.
"Our attitude is we look at ourselves and we grade ourselves. And even if we don’t like what’s happening on the other side, we don’t make a — it’s not our business" - Tony Larussa
Don't blame Taylor
I blame the refs for inconsistency.
Difference in officiating
On penetration is striking. They get fouls. We do not.
Joe missing two free throws was fatal
He was brutal today
Came late and missed it
Tubby got a technical?!
"Our attitude is we look at ourselves and we grade ourselves. And even if we don’t like what’s happening on the other side, we don’t make a — it’s not our business" - Tony Larussa
Yes, he astutely observed that it was no longer a foul to hit a shooter on his elbow in the act of shooting.
Bo Ryan was T’d up as well. He astutely was being a colossal douche.
Naturally during the time out
So we didn’t see what Tubby did.
Tubby ripping officials on radio postgame show
New motivation tactic?
"Our attitude is we look at ourselves and we grade ourselves. And even if we don’t like what’s happening on the other side, we don’t make a — it’s not our business" - Tony Larussa
He's wrong
About the charge on Austin. Call was right. But the rule is dumb.
He had the choicest words for the missed foul on the three point shot that got him the T
He said Hightower told him he didn’t see it. He wondered why he didn’t ask for help like he did with the charge. Is was the most fired up I’ve ever heard him, and to be honest it was the most direct criticism of an official that I can remember in a post game interview.
"Our attitude is we look at ourselves and we grade ourselves. And even if we don’t like what’s happening on the other side, we don’t make a — it’s not our business" - Tony Larussa
Tubby got a good schoolin' tonight
By Bo on the fine art of using the technical to turn a game around. Bo manufactured a T after his team sleep-walked 10 minutes without a point. Result? He got the crowd started, got his team’s attention, and got every call from the officials the last three minutes of the first half and the first six minutes of the second. Game over, point Bo.
Yes, Tubby took one (first of the season?) Nice try, Tub, but it doesn’t work well on the road unless you really put your heart into. Dre was totally fouled on a three, needed three free throws, and Tubby takes a timid T. No, Tubby, you should have gotten out on the court and gotten yourself thrown out of the damn game to show your kids the game was important.
But we have been told here that Bo Ryan is a first class whiner. Here’s a clue — there is often a direct relationship between “whining”, or, as some would suggest, working the officials, and winning. Bo Ryan is a winner.
Again
Ou vastly overestimate the value of giving the other team two points and the ball. It’s a huge gamble that rarely pays off.
Do you think ....
it paid off for Ryan tonight? Perhaps you didn’t notice the crowd getting into the game after his T. Maybe you didn’t notice the players come to life. Perhaps you were unaware of the 12-2 run that Whisky went on to end the first half and start the second. I suppose it is a mystery to you as to why Whisky got every call from the officials for the next ten minutes. Maybe it escaped you that it effectively turned the game. Did you notice who won?
" … huge gamble that rarely pays off … " Damn, sure wouldn’t want to gamble on anything with just a modest six-game losing streak now would we?
Reach for an answer to my question ...
Did it pay off for Bo Ryan Tuesday night?
No
"Our attitude is we look at ourselves and we grade ourselves. And even if we don’t like what’s happening on the other side, we don’t make a — it’s not our business" - Tony Larussa
OK, mnbrewer
I defer to your superior knowledge. Just because Wisconsin went on a 12-2 run after going nine minutes without scoring and every call went their way for an eight minute span could certainly have nothing to do with Bo Ryan’s technical. Excellent analysis, Mr. Attorney General.
Just because something happen doesn't mean it caused the result.
I would give more credit to Tubby’s T and the subsequent 5 point possession as a greater reason Whisky won than Ryan “getting the crowd fired up.”
And to you I say ...
… I sure am glad Jerry Kill does not play football like you play basketball. NO, JERRY, NO .. an onside kick is very risky and rarely successful. PLEASE, JERRY, run off tackle when you’re at your own 15 and down seven with 22 seconds to play. That would make a lot of sense.
So...
…that’s a ridiculous apples to oranges comparison that takes 2 situations with widely differing risk percentages utilized at completely different times that aren’t even from the same sport. So yea….
It might be time to stop using reason
It’s clearly not working
"Our attitude is we look at ourselves and we grade ourselves. And even if we don’t like what’s happening on the other side, we don’t make a — it’s not our business" - Tony Larussa
Nice try, Tub, but it doesn’t work well on the road unless you really put your heart into. Dre was totally fouled on a three, needed three free throws, and Tubby takes a timid T. No, Tubby, you should have gotten out on the court and gotten yourself thrown out of the damn game to show your kids the game was important.
My guess is that you wouldhave ripped Tubby for being classless had he done this and they still lost.
Tom IZZO is a winner, Bo Ryan is a whinner, and yes I am well aware that Izzo whines alot as well at least he teaches both offense and defense. I used to give Bo Ryan all the accolades in the world for heading up a consistent winner, but no more. I hate the way they play (you can barely recognize a basketball game out of what Wisky does, similar to watching the Jacques Lemaire neutral zone trap), and would much happier to have Gophers emmulate what Izzo does in Michigan State. That should be our comparision, not Bo Ryan’s hack-a-thon teams.
Your guess is wrong.
And yes, it would be nice to emmulate Tom Izzo, the best coach in the conference. But you cannot compare the talent level at Wisconsin with Michigan State. Ryan is a good coach because he gets kids to play above their comfort zone. Do you think Brueswitz and Berggren would be good Big Ten players playing for Tubby? He didn’t think they could play in the first place or he would have recruited them. Same for Taylor and Leuer.
He recruited Taylor and Leuer
They chose to leave
"Our attitude is we look at ourselves and we grade ourselves. And even if we don’t like what’s happening on the other side, we don’t make a — it’s not our business" - Tony Larussa
They didn't just choose to leave after Tubby got here...
…both were “gone” by the time he arrived. Both were Wisky verbals and Leuer had only about a month until signing day when Tubby arrived.
Yeah, absolutely
I was just saying it was ridiculous to say that Taylor and Leuer aren’t Gophers because of Tubby.
"Our attitude is we look at ourselves and we grade ourselves. And even if we don’t like what’s happening on the other side, we don’t make a — it’s not our business" - Tony Larussa
Ryan gets kids to play in his system, he doesn't necessarily get kids to play above
their comfort zone. Wisconsin, minus Taylor, has a horrendous offense. Brueswitz and Berggren are good defenders, but neither is a consistent factor offensively.
Joe Coleman is dreadful. Lousy shooting, bonehead passes, a cheapshot push on Bergeren. He could dominate on HS because he could take it to the hole against mediocre opposition. But he is a one trick pony and does not have the size to finish at the hoop. Hr is a B1G backup unless he can develop a shot.
by Draft Doctor on Feb 28, 2012 10:06 PM CST via mobile reply actions
Joe is not dreadful and he has a big upside
But Tubby is doing him a disservice by starting him now. Joe needs to sit until October 15 when he can come back with a balanced offensive game and his head on straight. Right now he is getting no positive experience and confidence by playing in this extended drought. Joe is a little like a a good golfer who hasn’t made a two and half foot putt in two months. He has reached a point where it would be better to sit down.
He is a FR
I wouldn’t hold it against him. That is what freshman do. The reason he has to play so many minutes is because the collective result of injuries (Mbakwe, Walker) and transfers (Joseph, Cobbs, Iverson).
I would expect a freshman to make mistakes. He still has plenty of time to develop.
I think I got it...
…AMiller bitches about the refs every game. At some point, it’s not the refs. Just sayin’…
DACGold bitches about Tubby every game, regardless of strategy or any measurable attribute. Hell or high water, Tubby is at fault.
And me…I got nuthin’. I’d say this team continues to piss me off and sicken me, but that would imply I have any emotion left for a sad sack of losers without pride or self respect. This team needs to find a soul this off-season. I’ll leave it at that.
Goodnight Gopher fans….another collapse.
Not saying its the ref's fault. Just that they suck.
You can’t tell me you disagree.
Oh really?
“DACGold bitches about Tubby every game, regardless of strategy or any measurable attribute.”
Are wins and losses “measurable” in your mind? Or are wins kind of fleeting things like Tubby checking out for the year (your words)?
Teams don’t “find a soul”. Good coaches instill it.
Teams don’t "find a soul". Good coaches instill it.
And as several folks have noted repeatedly from personal experience with players who could not be installed with anything they didn’t already have, this universal truth you spout is not in any way universally true.
You are incorrect ...
… and your experience is limited. Every human being is capable of rising above his or her normal. Every athlete is capable of playing better in some way than his or her every day standard. Every group of athletes is capable of coming together as a team and playing above the sum of their individual parts. Not every coach is capable of leading, motivating, and forging the will to win.
Yea...
…I think my multiple COY coach who lead the school in all time wins, NCAA appearances, overall single season records, coached All-Americans, got the school it’s deepest tourney runs ever, etc was plenty capable. And yet we had talented upperclassmen when I was a frosh who were not interested in rising above or playing above their standard (which was still pretty high thanks to their talent). Some players lack the will or desire to make the improvements needed. Just like people in everyday life do.
Certainly your scenario is possible and often happens. But it is still dependent on factors beyond the coach and is in no way universal.
Rising above, yes,
but sustaining it…not really. People revert back to a core mean of being….99/100 times.
Agreed, nothing is ever universal
And agree, there are many factors beyond the control of a coach or any other leader. But I think you would agree with me that not all coaches have the same capability to lead and motivate. That in itself is hard work, just like being a better player is hard work.
What we are really talking about here is an individual head coach of the Minnesota Gopher basketball team, not generalities. And while I respect this coach as a man, a role model, and a basketball coach for his career, I am left to conclude rather sadly that his heart is no longer in the hunt for excellence on the court. I do not believe this current team has been well coached, well prepared, nor highly inspired to play hard, smart, and as winners.
However, I repeat what I have said before. I do not want Tubby Smith fired. I do not want his fine career to end with indignity. If he coaches another year, I am OK with that. But it is inevitable that he must step down and it is not too early to discuss the attributes we seek in the next head coach of the Gophers.
Who stole your login information?
This is the most reasonable post I’ve ever seen from you. Don’t get me wrong, I love passion and rage…love it! But this is very level-headed…
Thanks for the compliment
Now let’s hope someone steals your login info so we can say the same about you.
And agree, there are many factors beyond the control of a coach or any other leader. But I think you would agree with me that not all coaches have the same capability to lead and motivate. That in itself is hard work, just like being a better player is hard work.
Completely agree.
What we are really talking about here is an individual head coach of the Minnesota Gopher basketball team, not generalities.
To be nitpicky, that’s what you’re saying now. Before you were pushing a generality which is why I pushed back.
And while I respect this coach as a man, a role model, and a basketball coach for his career, I am left to conclude rather sadly that his heart is no longer in the hunt for excellence on the court.
I share some of this concern.
I do not believe this current team has been well coached, well prepared, nor highly inspired to play hard, smart, and as winners.
I don’t agree across the board, but I would agree that there have clearly been games where they were not inspired to play hard or as winners. As for coaching, I feel that there is evidence that the non-game coaching has improved some of their play. That said, I’ve never liked Tubby’s in game adjustments and nothing he’s done lately changes my displeasure with that part of his job.
Yes, I pushed a generality
Because you were implying your personal experience, and that of one other poster, was the defining word on the issue. I said you were relying on limited experience to make your point.
No...
…you misunderstood me and you’re misrepresenting when you pushed the generality.
Look at the thread.
1) You pushed this generality:
Teams don’t "find a soul". Good coaches instill it.
2) I cited my and GN’s experiences to point out why your statement was not a universal truth. At no point did I claim that it was our experiences that were universal. That’s you reading something that isn’t there. Here is the post in full. Feel free to point out the universal claim in it:
And as several folks have noted repeatedly from personal experience with players who could not be installed with anything they didn’t already have, this universal truth you spout is not in any way universally true.
3) You reply with your limited experience post. Which was pointless, because as I’ve already noted, at no point did I pretend to claim that my experience was a universal one.
You did not claim your experience was universal
You just claimed it was the deciding factor in this discussion. It wasn’t.
Also...
…even if I had made a universal claim (which I didn’t) there would still be no cause (or logical backing) for you to make a universal claim in return.
There are plenty of logical ways to critique Tubby. You raise them fairly often. I don’t know why you feel the need to fall back on lazy and easily disproved arguments the rest of the time.
I wonder what it says
When you cannot disprove any of my “lazy and easily disproved” arguments. ROTFLMAO!!!!!!!
Hmmmm...already did.
You made a general claim that was insinuated to apply to all situations. I point out situations where it is not true. That would be misproving your claim.
This is you not understanding the definition of the word universal. If you didn’t mean for the statement to be universal and it was just poorly worded then say so. Otherwise you’re just betraying an inability to understand simple logic.
You are arguing for
The sake of argument. Have at it.
That's the sort of response that someone who realized they were wrong gives.
Especially since you aren’t refuting the validity of what I said.
Like I said already, you often make good arguments. But then you go on and add on nonsense. If you don’t want people to push back at you then simply stop writing the nonsense or admit you overstated things and move on.
My conclusions on Tubby...
…he’s an average college basketball coach. Not great. Not crappy. Just average. So when dealt personnel blows, he’ll struggle. When all goes well, he’ll make the NCAAs as a bubble team.
I don’t see him beating anybody with “strategery”…but he won’t necessarily blow games with bad decisions often either.
I just see the guy as average. He’s got a good name made for himself and media personnel love him (ESPN swings from his nuts, especially Vitale, come on guys…be objective!) but “he ain’t done shit” in a long time….and his program is a mess.
Next year he wins or I will motherfu&K him all year long with you. This year…I’m frustrated….but the situation just sucks. Season needs to end immediately so the team can refocus and as I said, find a soul…
Tubby
Was great at Tulsa and Georgia. I think he needs to go somewhere expectations are even lower than they are here. Although Clem had many shortcomings (road record) he built up the program to the point where we expected to make the tournament. Tulsa is a small school and football obviously rules Georgia. Basketball was the main sport at the U (along with hockey, but it is kind of a niche sport, even in MN) from the 70’s until Glen Mason got the football team rolling.
I agree, he gets to slide by based on his rep at Tulsa and Georgia (along with one great year at Kentucky) which was 15 years ago.
One great year?
He went 120-40 in conference, won 4 conference championships, a national championship, went to the elite 8 5 times, and never missed the tournament. He was an elite coach at Kentucky.
"Our attitude is we look at ourselves and we grade ourselves. And even if we don’t like what’s happening on the other side, we don’t make a — it’s not our business" - Tony Larussa
Clem went to the Tournament 5 times in 13 years
I will bet any amount of money that if Tubby is here for 13 years this team will have gone to the tournament at least 5 times.
Question: How hot is Tubby's seat?
On a scale from 1-10 where 1 is completely safe to 10 being fired after the season?
I don’t think anyone believes he will be fired after the season, but how much room for error does he have in the next 12 months?
I would go with a 7 right now. I think if we fail to make the tournament again next year it will be closer to 9.
5
but not because of the play of this team this year. I would credit a new AD coming in as the biggest factor in regards to the warmth of Tubby’s seat.
And if we are in this exact situation next year....
…what would you rate it?
I think he has exactly one year to turn this around with the new AD.
I'd agree.
If the new AD is worth anything, he’ll spend the first year preparing for having to replace Tubby. With luck, it will turn out that it isn’t necessary.
Well, if Tubby's seat is warm
I sure feel sorry for Bo Ryan. He’s only 22-8, 11-6 in the conference and going to the tournament but can’t coach for shittt according to the expert consensus here. Tubby is 17-13, 5-12 and going nowhere but is not accountable for anything. Monson done it; Clem done it.
Ah yes...the straw comes out.
No one ever said Bo couldn’t coach. I dare you to point to the post in this thread that says that. Some posters have debated you on the merits of his technical (or the underlying strategy), but that doesn’t speak to his quality as a coach. Another said he felt that Bo does a good job of coaching his system rather than getting his guys to play outside of their comfort zone, but that really isn’t a critique of his coaching ability either (in fact I’d argue it is a compliment).
But here you are, playing the “look at all the idiots claiming Bo can’t coach” card with nothing to back it up.
by GoAUpher on Feb 29, 2012 1:25 PM CST up reply actions 2 recs
And I, gasp .....
DOUBLE DARE you to find anyone here awake enough to agree with me that Bo turned the game around Tuesday night by manufacturing a T. That is coaching.
That is only one small strategic part of coaching.
Not the whole thing. And it’s not even a strategy or tactic that get employed every game, even by the coaches who are known for it.
But yes, disagreeing with the specific rarely deployed strategy is exactly the same as saying the person who employed the strategy “can’t coach.”
I’m going to guess you also have issues distinguishing a forest from an individual tree.
OMG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You want to talk about a strawman? Now you are saying I said TAKING A T is the whole thing about coaching? LOL. Does somebody pay you to think?
Apologies.
I misunderstood since you were responding to my comment pointing out that NO ONE said Bo couldn’t coach. I thought you were making a silly argument. I see that instead you were simply dodging the question.
Also...
…nice dodge with the 3rd grade double dare. Either you can’t be bothered to back up your assertions by quoting the posts that prove you right or you read through the thread and realized that you were in fact wrong but you’re unwilling to admit it. Neither option looks too good on your ability to discuss topics honestly.
ROTFLMAO
What a wonderful argument you make. You talking about honesty is like …. well, I think you know what I mean. It’s not good.
I'm not the one making things up.
You said people said Bo couldn’t coach. No one said that. Roll on the floor all you want. Maybe you’ll hit your head and knock some sense back in there.
Never said Bo can't coach
He’s a hell of a coach. He coaches players to play his system as well as any coach has ever done. I’m saying that I don’t like his system, but that doesn’t mean he isn’t a good/great coach, just personal preference to the type of basketball i like to watch.
I love to watch the style of basketball they play in March.
That’s the kind of fucking basketball I want to watch.
thats the rub against my dislike, they win consistently
its hard to argue that it works.
I gotcha....I know you'd like to be watching ball in March too....
…but I really want to reinforce how much I want NCAA tourney or bust. That has to be the benchmark. I don’t need to EVER win a Big 10 title…just get me into the NCAAs with regularity, even as a bubble team…and give me that one, mayb two rounds. Year in and year out, I’d take it and live happily ever after.
Football is a bit different….I’m hungrier for greater things….but basketball…just get to the NCAAs and the entire season was a success…even if we lose in the first round with some regularity. We’ll eventually make it to the 16….and an occasional 8….but damn…we MUST make that tourney year in and year out.
They don't really win in the tournament
Don’t get me wrong, they’ve had some success. But one elite 8 in 10 years doesn’t really compare to Izzo, Matta, or even Weber.
"Our attitude is we look at ourselves and we grade ourselves. And even if we don’t like what’s happening on the other side, we don’t make a — it’s not our business" - Tony Larussa
You're just trying to an ass, right?
Who said Ryan can’t coach?
No, it's all about getting a T at right time,
in the right place on the court, and using the right combination of curses. Or something…
"Our attitude is we look at ourselves and we grade ourselves. And even if we don’t like what’s happening on the other side, we don’t make a — it’s not our business" - Tony Larussa
by mnbrewer on Feb 29, 2012 6:14 PM CST via iPhone app up reply actions
And Bo ...
… did it to perfection. Like, Clem Haskins perfection. Bo won a game with a T just like Clem did at home a few times.
But the politically correct pantywastes here think it is unbecoming … to take a T … and to win a game. No no no no … not for us.
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